Rational Numbers and Repeating Decimals

Jomo, I see that these are the place values in base 9. I also see that you wrote them as powers of nine. Is it true, that technically the decimal system is used for base ten only, therefore we wouldn't be able to use 0.1 to refer to 1/9 in base 9?
No, we can use place-value notation for fractional values in any base; they just aren't technically called "decimals", as I mentioned. So my answer of 0.1 is correct. It's just called the base-nine representation for 1/9.
 
A place value system has a base that specifies the number of digits used. If we follow the very useful convention that the base is not indicated only if the base is ten, we say

[MATH]\dfrac{1}{9} = 0.1_9.[/MATH]
The technical point is that the period is called the radix point.
 
A place value system has a base that specifies the number of digits used. If we follow the very useful convention that the base is not indicated only if the base is ten, we say

[MATH]\dfrac{1}{9} = 0.1_9.[/MATH]
The technical point is that the period is called the radix point.

This is very helpful. In what math discipline did you learn about different bases??
 
I didn't. I was a history major. But my first job after college was working as a computer programmer (don't ask how that happened; the world does not work that way anymore.) So I had to learn how to work with binary, octal, and hexadecimal numerals very fast. Once you understand four such systems the general principles become obvious.
 
You do understand that there are an infinite number of infinitely repeating representations of fractions in every base, don't you?

Let's review the geometric series

[MATH]g_n = \sum_{j=0}^{n} a r^j = a * \dfrac{1 - r^{(n+1)}}{1 - r}.[/MATH]
From that it is easy to derive

[MATH]h_n = \sum_{j=1}^{n} a r^j = g_n - a = a * \dfrac{r(1 - r^n)}{1 - r}.[/MATH]
For example

[MATH]4 * \dfrac{1}{9} + 4 * \dfrac{1}{81} + 4 * \dfrac{1}{729} = 4 * \dfrac{81 + 9 + 1}{729} = \dfrac{364}{729}.[/MATH]
[MATH]4 * \dfrac{\frac{1}{9} * \left (1 - \frac{1}{9^3} \right )}{1 - \frac{1}{9}} = 4 *\dfrac{\cancel {\frac{1}{9}} * \frac{9^3 - 1}{9^3}}{8 * \cancel {\frac{1}{9}}} =[/MATH]
[MATH]\dfrac{4}{8} * \dfrac{729 - 1}{729} = \dfrac{\frac{1}{2} * 728}{729} = \dfrac{364}{729}.\ \checkmark[/MATH]
Therefore, the limit of hn as n goes to infinity and the absolute value of r is less than 1 is

[MATH]a * \dfrac{r}{1 - r}.[/MATH]
[MATH]\therefore \lim_{n \rightarrow \infty} \sum_{j=1}^{\infty} 4 * \left ( \dfrac{1}{9} \right )^j = 4 * \dfrac{\frac{1}{9}}{\frac{8}{9}} = \dfrac{4}{8} = 0.5.[/MATH]
But this means that

[MATH]\dfrac{1_{10}}{2_{10}} = 0.44444444..._9.[/MATH]
 
The technical point is that the period is called the radix point.
I considered mentioning that, but that would seem to lead to calling a "decimal" (number with a "decimal" point) a "radical" (number with a radix point), which would be utterly wrong!

The terminology in this area is really messed up.
 
I never knew that!
I am a treasury of useless knowledge.

When I was in the computer phase of my life, I worked with hexadecimal numerals quite a bit, but only for integers. Radix point never came up.
 
I considered mentioning that, but that would seem to lead to calling a "decimal" (number with a "decimal" point) a "radical" (number with a radix point), which would be utterly wrong!

The terminology in this area is really messed up.
I agree.

I suspect it is because place value based on ten digits is so deeply engrained now in our teaching that a vocabulary sufficient to deal with both it and other place value systems would involve mass re-education. For example, neither “radix point” nor “decimal point” really relates to the base. The meaning is the same in any place value system: the period marks the transition between integers and proper fractions. If we called it the integer point, it would be generally useful. But I have given up hope of getting this vocabulary straightened out: I hear people who should know better talking about binary numbers rather than binary numerals.
 
You do understand that there are an infinite number of infinitely repeating representations of fractions in every base, don't you?

Let's review the geometric series

[MATH]g_n = \sum_{j=0}^{n} a r^j = a * \dfrac{1 - r^{(n+1)}}{1 - r}.[/MATH]
From that it is easy to derive

[MATH]h_n = \sum_{j=1}^{n} a r^j = g_n - a = a * \dfrac{r(1 - r^n)}{1 - r}.[/MATH]
For example

[MATH]4 * \dfrac{1}{9} + 4 * \dfrac{1}{81} + 4 * \dfrac{1}{729} = 4 * \dfrac{81 + 9 + 1}{729} = \dfrac{364}{729}.[/MATH]
[MATH]4 * \dfrac{\frac{1}{9} * \left (1 - \frac{1}{9^3} \right )}{1 - \frac{1}{9}} = 4 *\dfrac{\cancel {\frac{1}{9}} * \frac{9^3 - 1}{9^3}}{8 * \cancel {\frac{1}{9}}} =[/MATH]
[MATH]\dfrac{4}{8} * \dfrac{729 - 1}{729} = \dfrac{\frac{1}{2} * 728}{729} = \dfrac{364}{729}.\ \checkmark[/MATH]
Therefore, the limit of hn as n goes to infinity and the absolute value of r is less than 1 is

[MATH]a * \dfrac{r}{1 - r}.[/MATH]
[MATH]\therefore \lim_{n \rightarrow \infty} \sum_{j=1}^{\infty} 4 * \left ( \dfrac{1}{9} \right )^j = 4 * \dfrac{\frac{1}{9}}{\frac{8}{9}} = \dfrac{4}{8} = 0.5.[/MATH]
But this means that

[MATH]\dfrac{1_{10}}{2_{10}} = 0.44444444..._9.[/MATH]

This is a lot to digest. I started by going to Khan academy and studying the formula for the sum of a finite geometric series. I will slowly work my way to understanding your geometric series example. Many of my questions were definitely clarified with all of your responses. I have also been adding and multiplying using different bases. It's starting to make some sense for sure. Thanks again.
 
I agree.

I suspect it is because place value based on ten digits is so deeply engrained now in our teaching that a vocabulary sufficient to deal with both it and other place value systems would involve mass re-education. For example, neither “radix point” nor “decimal point” really relates to the base. The meaning is the same in any place value system: the period marks the transition between integers and proper fractions. If we called it the integer point, it would be generally useful. But I have given up hope of getting this vocabulary straightened out: I hear people who should know better talking about binary numbers rather than binary numerals.

You are right. base ten is so engrained in my head that when I learned that there were other bases, it was really difficult for me to calculate using them. So you are saying that the decimal point is used in base 10 to separate the integers from the proper fractions and the radix point is used to do the same in other bases?
 
You are right. base ten is so engrained in my head that when I learned that there were other bases, it was really difficult for me to calculate using them. So you are saying that the decimal point is used in base 10 to separate the integers from the proper fractions and the radix point is used to do the same in other bases?
EXACTLY.

Well not quite exactly: the decimal point is the radix point for the decimal numeral system. “Radix“ is general; “decimal” is specific.

We do not teach well the distinctions between numerals and numbers; a numeration system is a set of symbols and rules for identifying numbers. The numeral is the symbol, and the number is the thing symbolized.

VII and 7 are both symbols representing the number seven.

[MATH]1A_{16} \equiv 26_{10}[/MATH] are just different ways to represent the number = to two times thirteen.
 
I am a treasury of useless knowledge.

When I was in the computer phase of my life, I worked with hexadecimal numerals quite a bit, but only for integers. Radix point never came up.

Did you learn all this math when you were learning the computer stuff in the computer phase of your life, or did you study math at some point?
 
I went to secondary schools that stressed languages and math and then went Columbia when it demanded that undergraduates learn some math as part of a well-rounded education. Later, when I was working with computers and then when I was in grad school, I decided that my math was deficient and took more undergraduate mathematics. I took enough for my needs (except linear algebra).

I do not claim to know much beyond the rudiments of modern math, but I have tried to understand those rudiments well. Since I retired from business, I have done a fair amount of tutoring and have developed strong opinions about how math could be taught better.
 
I went to secondary schools that stressed languages and math and then went Columbia when it demanded that undergraduates learn some math as part of a well-rounded education. Later, when I was working with computers and then when I was in grad school, I decided that my math was deficient and took more undergraduate mathematics. I took enough for my needs (except linear algebra).

I do not claim to know much beyond the rudiments of modern math, but I have tried to understand those rudiments well. Since I retired from business, I have done a fair amount of tutoring and have developed strong opinions about how math could be taught better.
I am an elementary school math teacher, but I'm always looking to learn high school math. I will probably never teach different bases or geometric series, but I'm always looking to learn more because it is all connected in such an interesting way. What is your opinion about how math could be taught better?
 
Here are a number of ideas

(1) We have allowed the logical roots of mathematics to intrude upon the teaching of basic mathematics. These roots answer questions that beginning students never have. It is true that set theory, analysis, abstract algebra are necessary for a professional mathematician to understand. But the percentage of students who will be professional mathematicians is well under 1%. The tools needed by a professional mathematician are not necessary to learn how to apply arithmetic or algebra or even calculus.

We ask high school students to memorize the definitions and names of the associative and commutative laws of addition and multiplication and then never do anything with them. Every student simply assumes on the basis of experience that they are true about numbers and never even dreams about non-abelian groups. Experience with numbers soon convinces children that

7 * 2 * 3 = 14 * 3 = 42 = 7 * 6 and

3 + 4 = 7 = 4 + 3.

Giving names to such facts takes up room in text books and gives teachers something “new” and “deep” to talk about, but it teaches a first year algebra student nothing that the student does not already know. Then we teach PEMDAS and avoid talking about non-associative and non-commutative operations that students are familiar with such as subtraction and division. So while we could have an interesting but unnecessary conversation about different varieties of mathematical operation, we don’t. The whole topic is just drudgery and make-work for students.

(2) We still spend too much time teaching mechanics and not enough time teaching how to apply mathematics to problems not posed in mathematical terms (“word problems”). I seldom if ever calculate 397 times 821 by hand. I know how to do it because I was educated before hand calculators, but I suspect I would not be hindered if I had to rely solely on a calculator. But not knowing when to multiply and what to multiply would have stopped my business career before it began.

(3) We used to teach proofs, but then gave it up because proofs that meet the demands of modern rigor are far too subtle for kids to cope with. We can‘t expect them to grasp Hilbert‘s geometry so we don’t make them grapple with Euclid‘s cruder version. Proof is an exercise in extended logical thinking, and we don’t bother to spend much time on it.

(4) The examples we use to make math relevant are too frequently absurd. Students doubt rightly that if they know they have a total of $17.49, they will have any interest in the number of quarters, dimes, nickel, and pennies that make up that sum.

(5) We ignore very important things. For example, the lurking Platonism of most mathematicians means that most people have no clue that the estimated difference between two roughly equivalent estimates has a very wide range of error.

1000 - 990= 10.

But suppose the 1000 and 900 are estimates accurate to within plus or minus 1%. Those are pretty good estimates, but the true difference might be anywhere between 1010 - 80.1 = 29.9 or 990 - 999.9 = - 9.9 a range of error of plus or minus 299%, and we cannot even sure of the sign of the difference. For many purposes, that makes the estimated difference perfectly useless.
 
The work that my math team does in our elementary school is to help change the way math is taught. This is a difficult task. Math instruction in our culture/country has been about teaching mechanics, rules, and algorithms. It is very difficult for math educators in the elementary and high school to change what they believe about math instruction because it is engrained in the culture. When we present new ideas that allow students to struggle productively and grapple with mathematical ideas, we are often shut down. We are told that they learned through memorization, and it worked for them. This is bizarre because we would not expect our scientists, doctors, or computer programers to use the same methods they used thirty years ago, and yet we continue to teach mathematics in the same way that we taught it thirty years ago. However, we are making some progress. We are developing a new structure to teach mathematics where students are given the opportunity to explore a problem and grapple with the mathematical ideas in a deep and meaningful way. It is a slow, yet steady progress.

There are also many math educators in the elementary world who understand the importance of problem based learning where students are given the opportunity to work through complex, real world problems in order to learn and understand mathematical ideas conceptually. This does require that many elementary and high school teachers learn the mathematics conceptually as well. We have to understand the mathematics deeply before we can expect our students to understand it deeply. This is why I ask questions in this forum.
 
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