A continuation of our discussion in the "The club has 53 members...." thread

Steven G said:
Suppose, in theory, you can make a car that will last forever. Sure, you'll spend lots of labor time but will never have to build a car for the owner ever again. On the other hand, suppose that you build a car that doesn't last long at all. The labor time will be minimal but that owner will be back to buy another car very soon. The real scenario will be in the middle.

How would this process work in your socialism? Note that empirical evidence shows that socialist/communist economies produce awful stuff and there is always not enough of it, so consumers take what's available - forget about the balance of utility and price. Here's my experience of shopping in Russia - you see a line, you better queue up first and then find out what the product is.

In Russia who owned the factories? There has never been a socialist society, besides for socialism to work the whole world needs to be onboard.

As someone who helps out on this math help forum and an English help form (I think that is you but might be wrong) don't you wonder why students need help? Why do you think that we push students to the next topic even though that didn't master the previous topic?
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To clarify - in your socialism there are still owners and buying? Seems strange. I expected no private property and no money.

Anyway, nice to have infinitely lasting cars, but let's be real. What IS infinite though is the amount of tastes, preferences, requirements potential car owners have. So, how do buyers get the car they want and how do car makers decide which cars to produce? I am guessing in your socialism you expect people to want exactly the same car, just like they will want to live exactly like you envision, completely contrary to human nature. Sure, if "the whole world is on board" we got ourselves "the real" socialism. But why would the whole world agree with you if you can't even convince the few people posting in this thread???

You need to explain this magical transformation OR you need to admit that your socialism will be just another dictatorship like all the other attempts, which will send anybody daring to think differently to a gulag.
 
lev888 said:
To clarify - in your socialism there are still owners and buying? Seems strange. I expected no private property and no money.

Anyway, nice to have infinitely lasting cars, but let's be real. What IS infinite though is the amount of tastes, preferences, requirements potential car owners have. So, how do buyers get the car they want and how do car makers decide which cars to produce? I am guessing in your socialism you expect people to want exactly the same car, just like they will want to live exactly like you envision, completely contrary to human nature. Sure, if "the whole world is on board" we got ourselves "the real" socialism. But why would the whole world agree with you if you can't even convince the few people posting in this thread???

You need to explain this magical transformation OR you need to admit that your socialism will be just another dictatorship like all the other attempts, which will send anybody daring to think differently to a gulag.
Click to expand...
I keep telling you that no private property is state capitalism. Why on earth would I want the state to own everything. Whatever they own, like the public schools, never works out well.

As far as cars go I chose my words carefully--I said suppose in theory that a car can last forever and then consider cars that last a very short time, and then I said that cars that are made will last somewhere in between those two extremes.

There are a finite number of different cars built today and no one is complaining that they want a different looking car. In socialism, cars and houses do not have to look the same. Come on, if the people run everything why would they want all houses and cars looking the same. You need to get away from your experiences with state capitalism. I suspect that it was awful. Socialism is nothing like that.

There is nothing wrong with my definition of socialism. Maybe, depending on who you ask, communism is a form of socialism. Below is how many sites describe socialism.

What is a true socialist economy?
A socialist economic system is characterized by social ownership and operation of the means of production that may take the form of autonomous cooperatives or direct public ownership wherein production is carried out directly for use rather than for profit.

What does socialism mean in simple terms?
Socialism is a political ideology that aims to make people equal. It generally focuses on equality of wealth (eg. similar wages, housing, education, healthcare), although since the 1960s, it has often focused on equality of power. It is normally considered left-wing, because it seeks to change society.

Is communism a form of socialism?
As one of the many types of socialism, communism became the dominant political tendency, along with social democracy, within the international socialist movement by the early 1920s. During most of the 20th century, around one-third of the world's population lived under Communist governments.

What do socialists believe?
Socialism is a political philosophy and movement encompassing a wide range of economic and social systems which are characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.

Let the revolution begin!
 
Steven G said:
......like the public schools, never works out well.
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It worked out very well for my 3 sons - 2 PhDs and 1 Master in engineering - all paid through merit-based scholarship and internships.

Above is a great manifesto for socialism. However, have those principles been successful anywhere - in last 100 years? Do you see it "budding" anywhere?
 
khansaheb said:
It worked out very well for my 3 sons - 2 PhDs and 1 Master in engineering - all paid through merit-based scholarship and internships.

Above is a great manifesto for socialism. However, have those principles been successful anywhere - in last 100 years? Do you see it "budding" anywhere?
Click to expand...
If K-12 was so good, then why do so many americans, that's all I know about, start college with arithmetic?
I started college with Calculus 1 and my professors saw that I had talent and asked me why I was so lacking in same prerequisite material. My response was that I went to public schools. They never asked me again.
Have you looked at the statistics for schools in poor neighborhoods? They have something like 5% at reading grade level and 5% at math grade level. An extremely high percentage of these students have no hope going on to higher education. I taught at Passaic County Community College in Paterson, NJ. The local high schools had a 75% drop out rate. Why do you think that is? I went to The City College of New York for my graduate studies which is in Harlem, NY. 50% of the young black males in Harlem had some involvement with the criminal justice system. I never had any trouble in the area nor did I see any criminal activities. These were basically good kids and now they have criminal records because the justice system just targets people of color. With a criminal record they can't attend public college in New York City. So right off the back, half of the young males in Harlem can't go to college. For the record, most can't afford private colleges.
I agree that if you are lazy then you deserve what you get. I just think that everyone should have a chance. Under capitalism this doesn't happen.
Do you see it "budding" anywhere? Yes, there are revolutionary organizations.
 
Steven G said:
I keep telling you that no private property is state capitalism. Why on earth would I want the state to own everything. Whatever they own, like the public schools, never works out well.

As far as cars go I chose my words carefully--I said suppose in theory that a car can last forever and then consider cars that last a very short time, and then I said that cars that are made will last somewhere in between those two extremes.

There are a finite number of different cars built today and no one is complaining that they want a different looking car. In socialism, cars and houses do not have to look the same. Come on, if the people run everything why would they want all houses and cars looking the same. You need to get away from your experiences with state capitalism. I suspect that it was awful. Socialism is nothing like that.

There is nothing wrong with my definition of socialism. Maybe, depending on who you ask, communism is a form of socialism. Below is how many sites describe socialism.

What is a true socialist economy?
A socialist economic system is characterized by social ownership and operation of the means of production that may take the form of autonomous cooperatives or direct public ownership wherein production is carried out directly for use rather than for profit.

What does socialism mean in simple terms?
Socialism is a political ideology that aims to make people equal. It generally focuses on equality of wealth (eg. similar wages, housing, education, healthcare), although since the 1960s, it has often focused on equality of power. It is normally considered left-wing, because it seeks to change society.

Is communism a form of socialism?
As one of the many types of socialism, communism became the dominant political tendency, along with social democracy, within the international socialist movement by the early 1920s. During most of the 20th century, around one-third of the world's population lived under Communist governments.

What do socialists believe?
Socialism is a political philosophy and movement encompassing a wide range of economic and social systems which are characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.

Let the revolution begin!
Click to expand...
Let's forget about cars for a minute. I would appreciate an answer to this point I keep raising and which sadly remains ignored:
"Sure, if "the whole world is on board" we got ourselves "the real" socialism. But why would the whole world agree with you if you can't even convince the few people posting in this thread???
You need to explain this magical transformation OR you need to admit that your socialism will be just another dictatorship like all the other attempts, which will send anybody daring to think differently to a gulag."
 
First of all you don't need whole world as in every single person as I assume that you are thinking to have socialism. We have presidents, governors and mayors and not everyone likes them.

The people here who don't support what I am saying just doesn't understand what I am talking about.

If the people ran things do you really think that students would be pushed though their classes before they mastered them?
We have racism in this world because people are not treated equally. If everyone was educated equally things would be much better.
Did the poor people in Africa do anything wrong? They may not have running water, inside toilets etc. It doesn't have to be that way.
If people ran things, we would have healthcare and childcare for everyone.
There is no reason why a surgeon, who loves to interact with people, couldn't also work in Walmart two days a week.
People should be able to do whatever they want. It is insane that most people (who aren't fired or laid off) have one job for their whole career. It is even more insane that we have people who want to work but can't find work. If they like to cook, then they can share the cooking hours in a restaurant. This way, the other cooks get to work less.

I understand that some people think that you work real hard, save up your money and then start your own business. My question is why do you need money to succeed, why can't you just 'succeed' by being born.
If people could be whatever they want (within reasons--not everyone can be a neurosurgeon), they really would work instead of staying home playing video games. If there were no profit, people would only have to work 4 hours a day instead of 8 or more hours a day.

It is just insane, to me at least, that someone owns a company, makes tons of money and the workers don't even get a living wage.

I was once in the office of my auto insurance broker and within 10 minutes FedEx, UPS and DHL all came to make deliveries (I guess the post office was off schedule that day). Do you realize how inefficient that is? 3-4 people to do the same exact job. That pure stupidity to me.

There is no reason why everyone, regardless of what piece of dirt that they are born on, could have a very nice life.
I like vintage cars. Is there a reason why Jay Leno can have a huge collection and I can't? Why can't ALL people who like art have nice art work in their homes?

Just remember that capitalism is the biggest crime of them all.
 
Steven G said:
If K-12 was so good, then why do so many americans, that's all I know about, start college with arithmetic
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Yet ~ 300,000 technological patents (a capitalist system of recognition of novel contribution) were granted to US inhabitants in the year 2021. and total 380 Noble prizes (another capitalistic recognition system).
 
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khansaheb said:
Yet ~ 300,000 technological patents (a capitalist system of recognition of novel contribution) were granted to US inhabitants in the year 2021. and total 380 Noble prizes (another capitalistic recognition system).
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To be fair, quite a few of them went to immigrants, who often did not go through K-12 in the US. But the fact that so many of them -- including yours truly -- opted to go to one of the most capitalistic countries on the planet explains why "real socialism" would not work unless it is global, a.k.a. totalitarian.
 
khansaheb said:
Yet ~ 300,000 technological patents (a capitalist system of recognition of novel contribution) were granted to US inhabitants in the year 2021. and total 380 Noble prizes (another capitalistic recognition system).
Click to expand...
Have you looked at the course offering at community colleges in the US. They typically have 30 sections of arithmetic, 15 sections of algebra, 3 sections of precalculus, 2 sections of calculus 1(one for the day students and 1 for the night students), 1 section of calculus 2 (only at night) and a section of calculus 3 offered every semester or every other semester.

The people you are speaking about, Noble prize winners, are brilliant and will excel in any school system. The college that I went to probably have the most number of students who went on to win the Nobel prize--I can only find a list of college showing how many Nobel prize winners are on the faculty. This was a public college in NYC (The City College of New York of the City University of New York).
Why did a public college have so many Nobel prize winners? Because at City College, an most other public college, the faculty don't have to pass students who don't deserve to pass. They teach so students understand the material, not so they can pass some exam (like the MCAT). I had a friend who was a math major at Wagner College, a private college in NYC, and he never had to do a proof ever. He went into a PhD program and was blown away. Wagner College sold him his degree while City College required me to earn a degree. This nonsense has to stop.

I am (probably) done with this thread.
 
Steven G said:
First of all you don't need whole world as in every single person as I assume that you are thinking to have socialism. We have presidents, governors and mayors and not everyone likes them.

The people here who don't support what I am saying just doesn't understand what I am talking about.

If the people ran things do you really think that students would be pushed though their classes before they mastered them?
We have racism in this world because people are not treated equally. If everyone was educated equally things would be much better.
Did the poor people in Africa do anything wrong? They may not have running water, inside toilets etc. It doesn't have to be that way.
If people ran things, we would have healthcare and childcare for everyone.
There is no reason why a surgeon, who loves to interact with people, couldn't also work in Walmart two days a week.
People should be able to do whatever they want. It is insane that most people (who aren't fired or laid off) have one job for their whole career. It is even more insane that we have people who want to work but can't find work. If they like to cook, then they can share the cooking hours in a restaurant. This way, the other cooks get to work less.

I understand that some people think that you work real hard, save up your money and then start your own business. My question is why do you need money to succeed, why can't you just 'succeed' by being born.
If people could be whatever they want (within reasons--not everyone can be a neurosurgeon), they really would work instead of staying home playing video games. If there were no profit, people would only have to work 4 hours a day instead of 8 or more hours a day.

It is just insane, to me at least, that someone owns a company, makes tons of money and the workers don't even get a living wage.

I was once in the office of my auto insurance broker and within 10 minutes FedEx, UPS and DHL all came to make deliveries (I guess the post office was off schedule that day). Do you realize how inefficient that is? 3-4 people to do the same exact job. That pure stupidity to me.

There is no reason why everyone, regardless of what piece of dirt that they are born on, could have a very nice life.
I like vintage cars. Is there a reason why Jay Leno can have a huge collection and I can't? Why can't ALL people who like art have nice art work in their homes?

Just remember that capitalism is the biggest crime of them all.
Click to expand...

"I am right, the people who disagree with me just don't understand me" is a non-falsifiable premise that stops any discussion in its tracks. How would you respond if I wrote that?
"If the people ran things" is a nice sounding non-explanation. It's a magic wand. You describe all these problems with the current mixed economy and declare the solution - if people ran things everything would be just great. No, it would not be. Did you read Atlas Shrugged? Here's an illustration of what happens if "people run things": https://theexplanationproject.fando...ld_by_Jeff_Allen,_the_tramp_on_Dagny's_train)

"Well, there was something that happened at that plant where I worked for twenty years. It was when the old man died and his heirs took over. There were three of them, two sons and a daughter, and they brought a new plan to run the factory. They let us vote on it, too, and everybody -- almost everybody -- voted for it. We didn't know. We thought it was good. No, that's not true, either. We thought that we were supposed to think it was good. The plan was that everybody in the factory would work according to his ability, but would be paid according to his need."


It didn't end well. It never does. You may say "but what about the whole world accepting socialism?" The answer is that the result would be that much worse compared to all the failed attempts in stand-alone countries. Until there is a clear explanation of the change in human nature that would lead to wide acceptance of socialsim/communism any new attempts should be met with total rejections.

And speaking of the human nature. I specifically asked why people would change their minds/nature and accept your socialism. You didn't answer. Instead, you described a rosy picture of how everything would be great if "people ran things". The only part that touches on my point is "you don't need whole world as in every single person". Ok, but what happens to those people? That's exactly why I wrote: "OR you need to admit that your socialism will be just another dictatorship like all the other attempts, which will send anybody daring to think differently to a gulag."

Do you realize that there are people who prefer to do their own thing? They don't want to "just 'succeed' by being born."!!! I don't think you do. Because if you did, you would have to either admit that your philosophy doesn't work or you would have to deal very harshly with them. E.g. "off to the gulag with you".
 
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