useless arguements - math hw help, triangle perimiter

The Highlander said:
You don't think I've already provided (more than) enough help already??? ?
There's very little left for the OP to do themself. ?‍♂️ ?
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Correct ! I was just trying to prod OP to post completed solution.
 
The Highlander said:
You don't think I've already provided (more than) enough help already??? ?
There's very little left for the OP to do themself. ?‍♂️ ?
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Well, you actually provided the final answer, along with strong method help, which removes a lot of the incentive for the OP to post back. Personally, I'd recommend that you stop short of doing this.

I know that @pka often provides the final answer. But this is usually more like an, "answer at the back of the book" (Without showing a lot of method help).
 
Cubist said:
Well, you actually provided the final answer, along with strong method help, which removes a lot of the incentive for the OP to post back. Personally, I'd recommend that you stop short of doing this.

I know that @pka often provides the final answer. But this is usually more like an, "answer at the back of the book" (Without showing a lot of method help).
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Do you mean like in this thread? ??

Seriously, however, I appreciate your comment and take your point about providing the ‘answer’. (That is exactly why I wrote, earlier, that I had provided “(more than) enough help”; indeed, I was concerned that some might consider I had provided too much!)

On reflection, I do think it would have been better if I had put the numerical values (10, 13 & 12cm) into (inline) spoilers (so that the OP would have had to log back in again in order to see them) but I also feel that this was the only failing in my post (and I will certainly bear it in mind in any future contributions I make).

The OP explicitly requested an “explanation” implying (to me at least) that s/he was struggling (badly?) with the problem.

@mmm4444bot did provided a (plenary) explanation soon after the original post and, although it was perfectly correct (and comprehensive) it was, perhaps, a wee bit ‘technical’ for someone who wasn’t already 'comfortable' with the procedures outlined; it was also clearly intended to provoke a response from the OP to provide some ‘evidence’ of their own effort(s).

@Steven G followed that up later with a couple of (again, perfectly valid) suggestions as to how to begin work on the solution.

Both of these posts were made before the OP’s latest login so it seemed safe (to me) to assume that the OP had seen them both. However, six hours later, there was neither response from the OP nor any further postings on how to approach the problem. That (again to me) raised several possibilities:-

  1. The OP has gone to bed or is otherwise ‘engaged’ and hasn’t had an ‘opportunity’ to respond.
  2. The OP has lost interest (or found a solution elsewhere) and we will never ‘hear’ from them again.
  3. The OP has completed the problem (to his/her ‘satisfaction’) and just hasn’t bothered to let us know.
  4. The OP is still struggling to get started/complete the solution to the problem.
(I cannot claim that list to be entirely comprehensive. ?)​

Given those circumstances (& esp. the possibility of #4) I felt it was entirely appropriate to provide the (further) 'guidance' I did. I would point out that, although I expanded on Steven's hints (by formulating the expressions he indicated) I did leave it to the OP to actually carry out the simplification of these expressions. Suggesting the final form to be aimed at (and providing the constants) as 'hints' was an attempt to address point #3 (above) so the OP might ‘check’ whether their efforts (if any) were correct. Again, in retrospect, I should have put the 10, 13 & 12cm behind spoilers.

I also left it up to the OP to apply the technique of solving simultaneous equations entirely on their own; the final (12cm) answer simply being a check on the validity of any work they did (much like your “answer at the back of the book” comparison).

My thinking was that, if the OP had little or no ‘competence’ in simplifying algebraic expressions or the simultaneous solution of two equations involving two variables, then the (more) explicit ‘instruction(s)’ I had provided would now prompt the OP to come back seeking more explicit help on how to proceed (again, possibility #4 or, maybe, #1?).

Alternatively, if #2 is the case, then I believe my post might be very helpful to other visitors to the site looking for help on similar problems.

In conclusion (if anyone has read thus far ?), whilst appreciative of your comments, I stand by my post in its entirety with the sole exception that I should have ‘hidden’ the elements already mentioned and, IMNSHO ?, what I posted does provide an incentive for the OP (or others) to respond (eventually) but, even if the OP doesn’t ever come back (as, sadly, is so often the case) then, if s/he has reached a solution (that they can’t be ‘bothered’ informing us about) then at least s/he can be confident that their solution is correct and, surely, that is our ultimate aim (to help people reach the correct solutions)? We don’t really need the reassurance that we have helped them (by getting their confirmation of that) to ‘bolster our confidence' in ourselves that we are doing the right thing, do we?

Kind Regards,
B.
 
Subhotosh Khan said:
Correct ! I was just trying to prod OP to post completed solution.
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mmm4444bot and Steven G provided sufficient prodding in posts # 2 and # 3, respectively. There was no reply by the OP yesterday at
least until 6:59 p.m. There should have been no further prodding posts after post # 3 yesterday made by forum helpers, not to mention
almost-solution posts.
 
lookagain said:
mmm4444bot and Steven G provided sufficient prodding in posts # 2 and # 3, respectively. There was no reply by the OP yesterday at
least until 6:59 p.m. There should have been no further prodding posts after post # 3 yesterday made by forum helpers, not to mention
almost-solution posts.
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I trust you mean "in your opinion".
An opinion with which I do not agree (my reply to @Cubist (above) refers).
 
The Highlander said:
Do you mean like in this thread? ??
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That was after the "wait one month before posting a solution (click)" advice ?

--

I agree that your post was very informative and would be massively helpful to someone who was struggling - I just thought the timing was a bit soon given there was no feedback from the OP and as you have said the "12cm" final answer also seemed a bit too much IMO.

You should be aware that anyone can reveal spoilers without logging in.

I'm fairly happy to go with whatever the unwritten helper rules are. I used to like it when we posted worked answers more quickly (but still using commonsense like avoiding "URGENT" questions that were obviously from an online exam :devilish: , which isn't the case here )
 
Cubist said:
That was after the "wait one month before posting a solution (click)" advice ?

--

I agree that your post was very informative and would be massively helpful to someone who was struggling - I just thought the timing was a bit soon given there was no feedback from the OP and as you have said the "12cm" final answer also seemed a bit too much IMO.

You should be aware that anyone can reveal spoilers without logging in.

I'm fairly happy to go with whatever the unwritten helper rules are. I used to like it when we posted worked answers more quickly (but still using commonsense like avoiding "URGENT" questions that were obviously from an online exam :devilish: , which isn't the case here )
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You are, of course, entitled to your opinions. ?
Just as @lookagain is (even when they're wrong! ?)
 
I think almost all of us agree that we do not give immediate answers to students. Rather we give help to students. (I have a different view for those who are obviously not students.) There will be disagreements about how much help is too much help and what delay is appropriate before providing additional help.

My suggestion is that if a moderator judges that a helper has gone over the line in a particular case, the moderator discuss it with that helper through PMs. It will be chaos if every volunteer starts opining on the "rules" and the "facts." How to help and how much help to provide will always have a subjective element.
 
JeffM said:
I think almost all of us agree that we do not give immediate answers to students.
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And I just reportedl the pertinent post # 4 of the original thread to discourage
to what you are referring here.
 
I, personally, do not like posting complete "xeroxable" solution. I think our intention should be to encourage discovery. If we feel that a complete solution is necessary, we should make up an alternate problem and solve it completely.

These are my gentle "pontifications" - nothing is written on stone.
 
Subhotosh Khan said:
I, personally, do not like posting complete "xeroxable" solution. I think our intention should be to encourage discovery. If we feel that a complete solution is necessary, we should make up an alternate problem and solve it completely.

These are my gentle "pontifications" - nothing is written on stone.
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Thanks :thumbup::)
 
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