Suggestions

D

daon2

Senior Member
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Aug 17, 2011
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1) If a user is new (a few posts or less), when starting a new thread, he/she will first be presented with a page, containing big red letters or similar, the most common reply on these boards. Something along the lines of: "Be sure to post any work you have done along with your problem, so that we may help. This is a homework help site... Yada, yada, yada". It is pretty obvious most new users skip all the rules threads, and are anxious to hit "create new thread". Posting the same message over and over seems tiring and annoying. I once thought this was a good idea: you're teaching them to properly ask questions to receive assistance, but I have since realized those users with one or two posts rarely or never again return (at least as the same user).

2) For all users, Have an option along the lines of "I'm asking a math question" presented before a thread is made. The user will be presented the same create-thread as he/she would normally be, but the box is pre-filled with text (much like physicsforums.com does in the homework help section):

What is your question and where are you stuck?

What have you tried so far? Please post your work or thoughts.

Include all relevant formulas, axioms and other assumptions.

Or, as most of the new threads are like this, have this text as default for all users (without a prompt before hand), where it may be turned off in our control panels.
 
With respect to daon's first suggestion, I made a similar suggestion in the post parts of which are copied below. I suspect that forcing a first-time poster to view the guidelines before posting would not be time consuming to implement, but it might not be highly effective because, although it would be seen, it might not be read. I do think that the guidelines themselves need a small amount of revision, mostly in the form of an addition or two and a little rearrangement.

His second suggestion, namely to use software to channel questions into a sensible structure, strikes me as brilliant, but also reqiring considerable effort, and therefore time, to design, implement, and maintain. If we were to implement something like his first suggestion, we could see whether that reduced the problem substantially and consequently whether the effort required for the second suggestion was even worthwhile.

The read-before-posting guidelines should encourage posters to explain briefly where they are in their math education. Information about the original poster and his or her math education makes it much easier to figure out how best to respond. An answer that is appropriate for a student who is 12 and just starting to study algebra will be entirely different from an answer appropriate for a student in first-year calculus who has forgotten something from algebra (say difference of powers).

It would probably be good to say in the guidelines that our primary purpose is to help students and that we do so by correcting errors, giving hints, starting solutions, rather than by providing answers, and that we have trouble with students who try by various devious means to get us to do their homework. Consequently, we should warn people who are not students that the process may be more roundabout than they would prefer.

If Mark wants to rewrite the guidelines, I'd be happy to help. Actually, I do not think they are in nearly as poor shape as he seems to. I would suggest re-ordering and maybe a few additions. Be nice. Be patient. Here is what we do. Here is how we do it. What we need from you: exact problem statement, work to date, if no work, ideas considered, proper use of PEMDAS and grouping symbols.

My most heartfelt suggestion is to force people at least to look at the guidelines before they can make an initial post. We count how many posts they have made so it should be feasible without horrible effort.
Click to expand...
 
JeffM said:
With respect to daon's first suggestion, I made a similar suggestion in the post parts of which are copied below. I suspect that forcing a first-time poster to view the guidelines before posting would not be time consuming to implement, but it might not be highly effective because, although it would be seen, it might not be read. I do think that the guidelines themselves need a small amount of revision, mostly in the form of an addition or two and a little rearrangement.

His second suggestion, namely to use software to channel questions into a sensible structure, strikes me as brilliant, but also reqiring considerable effort, and therefore time, to design, implement, and maintain. If we were to implement something like his first suggestion, we could see whether that reduced the problem substantially and consequently whether the effort required for the second suggestion was even worthwhile.
Click to expand...


I really feel that one or the other, and not both, would be preferable. The second option would not be as considerably difficult as you might think, or I may not have explained it well. Just a few lines of code would put text by default into the text-box on the create thread page. Perhaps a combination, something along the lines of:

maththread.JPG


The only real work is linking this to an option in the control panel where experienced users and tutors would be able to turn the auto-text off.

edit: of course, don't spell "receive" the way I do :shock:
 
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daon

If your second suggestion can be implemented easily, there is indeed no need to do two tasks when one would do. I still think making a first-time poster look at the rules page is better than a link.

Jeff
 
I think so too. Perhaps with their first thread made but I fear too much administration may discourage some would-be contributors.
 
Technically posting, this thread should be on the admin board, but hey -- it'll get archived there eventually.

There are ways (according to info at vBulletin Forums) to alter the text on the page during the registration process. There are also ways to require "electronic signature" to text on added page, during registration. (There are many ways to keep machines from registering here, too, which would be really nice for those of us working in the subbasement.)

Anyways, I'm not allowed to join that community, so I'm not too interested in doing much leg work there. Also -- Ted is currently MIA (it seems).

So, to make a start toward doing something, I've stuck a posting-guidelines summary "page" at the top of the admin board, so that its title "Read Before Posting!" will be visible on our front page. (Whenever I see a new thread on the admin board, I will bump the sticky to regain exposure on the front page.)

I have no idea what effect this presence on the front page will have, but if the community can agree on summary text to go in that sticky post, then I will place it there. :cool:
 
I don't know what's involved in placing a template or some such for new users each time they post. Ted would need to investigate such system changes.

"Read Before Posting" has many thousands of views, across the boards. Maybe it's info overload; I think that its contents need reordering, at the least. Maybe the boards get a large number of unmotivated people. Many factors, I suppose.

A summary of our posting guidelines may be useful; we can tailor it to include some of what daon2 and JeffM have been discussing. If nothing else, we can at least post links to the summary. (If at least one life is saved...)

It could start out with one or two sentences about our "mission". I like JeffM's "as the name implies, we give free math help." I like Bob Brown's description of tutoring via bulletin board as a conversation.

A summary could take the form of specific instructions to list


  1. All of the given info
  2. What you've done thus far
  3. What you're thinking about or why you're confused
  4. What class are you taking? or What is your class studying?

I would also like to see a very brief statement about grouping symbols, perhaps with one simple example.

What are other scenarios that waste so much time? Do we need to stress that when tutors pose direct questions, a student's first reply should include direct answers?

It's a work in progress...

(and I hope that somebody drafts a first copy, hint, hint) :cool:
 
mmm4444bot said:
(and I hope that somebody drafts a first copy, hint, hint) :cool:
Here is a first cut. I tried to get in everything suggested except Daon's idea of listing all relevant axioms, theorems, formulas. That is usually relevant only to more advanced students, and they know too many theorems and formulas to list efficiently. When it is necessary, for example, to determine whether a student knows how to integrate by parts, maybe it is reasonable to ask that question rather than expecting a list of potential techniques of integration.
Click to expand...
Welcome to Free Math Help.

SUMMARY OF GUIDELINES

As the name implies, we provide help, primarily to students, by having a conversation with you about your problem. We do not usually give out answers to homework.

Here is what you need to do so that we can provide the right help quickly.

(1) Be polite. It's a public conversation.

(2) Give us your problem completely and accurately. Usually the easiest way to do this is to copy it word for word.

(3) Tell us where you are in your mathematical education. Examples: "I am in seventh grade studying pre-algebra," or "I am a freshman in college studying differential calculus." That lets us have a conversation that will be right for you.

(4) If you have started work but got stuck somewhere, show us the work you have done and explain what is blocking you from proceeding.

(5) If you have not been able even to start, try to explain what is confusing you and ask for a hint or an example.

(6) Show division and fractions like this: \(\displaystyle 6 / 3\) for \(\displaystyle \dfrac{6}{3}\ or\ 6 \div 3\).

(7) We may respond by asking you some questions. Please answer them fully.

FOR STUDENTS WHO HAVE STUDIED SOME ALGEBRA

(8) Please do not use "x," "X," or "." to indicate multiplication. Use \(\displaystyle ab\ or\ a * b\) to indicate mutiplying a and b.

(9) Make sure that you use grouping symbols wherever needed to prevent confusion. For example

80 / x - 10 means \(\displaystyle \dfrac{80}{x} - 10\). But 80 / (x - 10) means \(\displaystyle \dfrac{80}{x - 10}\).

ADVANCED STUDENTS SHOULD ALSO READ THE MORE EXTENSIVE GUIDELINES THAT FOLLOW
 
JeffM said:
SUMMARY OF GUIDELINES

As the name implies, we provide help (primarily to students), by having a conversation with you about your problem. We do not usually give out answers to homework.

You begin the conversation by telling us about your situation. Here is what you need to do so that we can provide the right help quickly.

Give us your problem completely and accurately. Usually the easiest way to do this is to copy it word for word.

Tell us where you are in your mathematical education. Examples: "I am in seventh grade- we're learning square roots," or "I am a freshman in college studying calculus, and we're doing limits." That lets us have a conversation that will be right for you.

If you have started work but got stuck somewhere, show us the work you have done and explain what is blocking you from proceeding.

If you have not been able even to start, try to explain what is confusing you or ask for a hint or an example.

We may respond by asking you some questions. Please try to answer them. If you're not sure what we're talking about, tell us!

NOTE: If you've learned about Order of Operations, please make sure that you type grouping symbols where needed to prevent confusion.

For example:

80/x-10 means \(\displaystyle \dfrac{80}{x} - 10\)

But 80/(x-10) means \(\displaystyle \dfrac{80}{x-10}\).
Click to expand...

Thank you, JeffM. I've been cleaning my sister's roofs and gutters the last two days, and I'm bushed. (That's not 'bushed' as from falling off a roof, Denis ;))

This draft is good start; I removed the items (see bottom), to keep summary brief. I think summary should focus on very basics (that is, just frequent issues). We can always edit, in future, as needed. I'd like to avoid summary as replacement for full page. (I think main-guidelines link should stay at bottom of summary.)

The parts I changed color to light salmon, I would delete. Shooting for general audience (grouping-symbol info is exception). Also like to have very neutral, inviting language; some posters are so sensitive or easily scared.

Parts in blue are suggested rewordings.

I invite other regular contributors to chime in.

Cheers


(1) Be polite. It's a public conversation.

(6) Show division and fractions like this: \(\displaystyle 6 / 3\) for \(\displaystyle \dfrac{6}{3}\ or\ 6 \div 3\).

FOR STUDENTS WHO HAVE STUDIED SOME ALGEBRA

(8) Please do not use "x," "X," or "." to indicate multiplication. Use \(\displaystyle ab\ or\ a * b\) to indicate mutiplying a and b.

ADVANCED STUDENTS SHOULD ALSO READ THE MORE EXTENSIVE GUIDELINES THAT FOLLOW
 
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Mark

I particularly like your suggestion to disclose what specific topic the student is studying as well as the course. Although it is usually self-evident from the problem posed, it sometimes is not. In any case, it gets the student into the mode of contributing information instead of sitting there with a beak gaped as open as any newly hatched bird.

I think all of your suggestions are improvements except possibly for deleting the warning that few of us just give out answers to homework. That incorrect expectation is the most frequent delay to having a productive conversation.

I understand and agree with your desire to keep this brief, but maybe we need a note for the questioners who are not students. Maybe something as simple as, "If you are not a student, please be patient and explain your problem in full detail with context." Usually it is possible to distinguish between the messy problems that arise out of practical life with the neatly constructed problems of the classroom. When someone has a practical problem, I want to avoid being Socratic.

Jeff
 
JeffM said:
Although [classroom activities are] usually self-evident from the problem posed
Click to expand...

Really? My impression is otherwise. I think that the course (eg: algebra, trig, calculus) is generally evident, but I often have difficulty guessing what the class is doing

I'll also say that I generally go by the board category in assuming that people locate their threads ideally (I know: lol); Even so, I'm not moving many threads to other boards, compared to the experiences where I don't know what the class is doing. It also seems redundant (to me) for posters to be asked to state "I'm in calculus" when posting threads on the calculus board, for example.

Here's a thought-question: where should an algebra question go from a student who is studying integration?

That is, when somebody is stuck at a prerequisite level in a more-advanced course, they ought to post in the more-advanced category, I think -- lest we have calculus discussions at the ends of threads in algebra. This is why it is important to get the entire exercise. My opinion is to first trust that the thread is properly located, but verify (in cases where we are waiting for the entire exercise to be posted). Plus, in those other cases where we see only a partial algebra question on the calculus board, for example, we may respond -- along with whatever other initial instructions/requests we have -- by specifically adding that we really need to know why it's posted on the calculus board.

I'm open to discussion about the finer details; I would like to take down the construction sign in that summary thread in a few days, and then edit the text as contributors decide in ongoing posts.


except possibly for deleting the warning that few of us just give out answers to homework. That incorrect expectation is the most frequent delay to having a productive conversation.
Click to expand...

Yes, we can have that statement in the summary. Something about non-students, also, but I do not want to plant any ideas that by misrepresenting their enrollment status we will yield camera-ready responses.


None of the other regular contributors have comments about the summary text, to date? Is this correct?

I would like to repeat that this summary is not a replacement for the full posting-guidelines. I'm asking help in creating a summary for three reasons: (1) to get a link onto the front page that says "Read Before Posting", (2) to focus attention on the most-important points because I feel that the full page of guidelines invites some to skip reading, and (3) to have a block of text that I may paste or reference in my replies; I'm growing weary of repeatedly typing the same info.


DRAFT3 (lastest edits in purple, <>denotes <link>):

Welcome to our tutoring boards! :D This page is a summary of our <posting guidelines>.

As our name implies, we provide help (primarily to students with homework). We do not generally provide answers or step-by-step solutions to assignments. We help by having a conversation with you about your current difficulty. Please begin the conversation by explaining your situation.

Here is what you need to do, to get good help quickly!

(1) State the given exercise or your question completely and accurately. (The easiest way is to copy the exercise word-for-word AND use the preview button to proofread your typing.)

(2) Tell us something about your age and math education.

......Examples: "I'm in seventh grade - we're learning square roots"
.................... "I'm a college freshman in calculus, and we're studying limits."
....................."I'm a parent and I have a quick question"
....................."I'm an older student; please check my answer"

(3) If you started your exercise, but got stuck, please show your work and explain why you're stuck.

(4) If you are unable to show any work, then please tell us why, so that we can determine where to begin helping you.

(5) If you're posting for reasons other than asking about homework help, please say so!


We may respond by first asking you some questions. Please try to answer our questions. If you're not sure what we're talking about, tell us! (When people do not answer our questions, we think they are not paying attention or give up. :()


NOTE: If you've learned about Order of Operations, then be sure to type grouping symbols in your posts where needed to prevent confusion.

For example, typing the expression 80/x-10 means \(\displaystyle \dfrac{80}{x} - 10\)

But typing 80/(x-10) means \(\displaystyle \dfrac{80}{x - 10}\)


If you have not already done so, please read the complete posting guidelines (click HERE) and our forum rules (click HERE).
 
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DRAFT4:

Welcome to our tutoring boards! :D This is a summary of our <posting guidelines>.

As our name implies, we provide help (primarily to students with homework). We do not generally post immediate answers or step-by-step solutions to assignments. We help by having a conversation with you about your current difficulty. Please begin the conversation by explaining your situation.


Here is what you need to do, to get good help quickly!

1. State the given exercise or your question completely and accurately.
....The easiest way is to copy the exercise word-for-word AND use the preview button to proofread your typing.

2. Tell us something about your age and math education.
....Examples: "I'm in seventh grade - we're learning square roots"
................. "I'm a college freshman in calculus, and we're studying limits."
.................."I'm a parent and I have a quick question"
.................."I'm an older student; please check my answer"

3. Please show any work and explain why you're stuck, if you started your exercise but cannot finish it.

4. If you cannot begin the exercise, then tell us WHY you are confused, so that we can determine where to begin helping you.


:idea: We may respond by asking you questions. Please try to answer our questions. If you're not sure what we're talking about, tell us! (When people do not answer our questions, we may think they're not paying attention or have given up.)

Be sure to read the complete posting guidelines (HERE) and our forum rules (HERE).


NOTE: If you have learned about the Order of Operations, then be sure to type grouping symbols in your posts where needed to prevent confusion.

For example, typing the expression 80/x-10 means \(\displaystyle \dfrac{80}{x} - 10\)

But typing 80/(x-10) means \(\displaystyle \dfrac{80}{x - 10}\)
 
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Me:

I particularly like your suggestion to disclose what specific topic the student is studying as well as the course. Although it is usually self-evident from the problem posed, it sometimes is not.
Click to expand...

Mark:

Really? My impression is otherwise. I think that the course (eg: algebra, trig, calculus) is generally evident, but I often have difficulty guessing what the class is doing.
Click to expand...

When the question is incomprehensible, it's admittedly close to impossible to deduce what the specific topic is. When the question is decently posed, it's usually not that hard and seldom is relevant. But this is not worth arguing about because I agree with you, for a number of reasons, that we should solicit the information about what specific topic is currently being studied.

Like you, I am not worried about whether the student has posted on the most appropriate forum; our job is to provide help to people who are trying to learn. If a posting occurs on a wildly inappropiate forum, I think most people would answer the question and, as an aside, point out where it should have been posted.

I had not previously thought about the questions found in the calculus forum that seem really to represent a hole in the student's knowledge of algebra or questions found in the algebra forum that seem really to represent a hole in the student's knowledge of arithmetic. My immediate reaction is that we should do exactly as you say: be very reluctant to move the question out of the forum where the student put it. My first reason for that is the same as yours: students asking for help in algebra need to be encouraged rather than dumbfounded by seeing a calculus problem. My second reason is that it is not always clear whether the difficulty lies in one field or the other or in some combination of the two fields. My third reason is that moving a question from a relatively advanced page to a less advanced one may seem little to us but may psychologically be demoralizing to the student.

I really like what you have done. Great job.
 
Thank you, Jeff.

Everybody: If there are no major objections to Draft5 (below), I plan to place it in the summary thread sometime after 00:01 (EDT) this Saturday, November 3.
 
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Draft5 (Minor wording changes. Adjustments to accommodate smaller screens. Please advise if any line breaks look wrong on your screen):


Welcome to our tutoring boards! :D This page is a summary of the main points in our posting guidelines.

As our name implies, we provide help (primarily to students with homework). We do not generally post immediate answers or step-by-step solutions to assignments. We help by having a conversation with you about your current difficulty. Please begin this conversation by telling us about your situation.


Here is what you need to do, to get good help quickly!


1. Post the exercise or your question completely and accurately.

The easiest way is to copy exercises word-for-word AND use the preview button to proofread your typing. PLEASE begin new threads for different exercises.


2. Tell us something about your age and math education.

Examples: "I'm in seventh grade - we're learning square roots"
Examples: "I'm a college freshman in calculus, and we're studying limits."
Examples: "I'm a parent, and I have a quick question"
Examples: "I'm an older student; please check my answer"


3a. Please show any work (even if you think it's wrong) and explain why you're stuck, if you've already started but cannot finish. We will check your work and then reply.

OR

3b. If you cannot begin, then please tell us WHY. We need some clues about what confuses you, so that we can determine where to begin helping you.


4. We may respond by asking you some questions. Please try to answer our questions.

:idea: If you're not sure what we're talking about, tell us! We can try again. (When people do not respond to our questions, we may think they're not paying attention or have given up.)



Read the complete posting guidelines (HERE) and our forum rules (HERE).



NOTE: If you've learned about Order of Operations, then be sure to type grouping symbols in your posts where needed to prevent confusion.

For example, typing this: x+80/x-10 means \(\displaystyle x + \dfrac{80}{x} - 10\)

But typing (x+80)/(x-10) means \(\displaystyle \dfrac{x + 80}{x - 10}\)
 
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Mark

Again, I think this is excellent work. It is going to be very easy to direct people to this page and therefore avoid having to spell out innumerable times the basic rules of the game. Thank you.

Jeff
 
I think it is a good step. Anything to potentially slow the "read this, first" posts is in my favor, and this might help it get done. Whether it will have any kind of noticeable impact, we'll just have to wait and see!
 
daon2 said:
Whether it will have any kind of noticeable impact, we'll just have to wait and see!
Click to expand...

Agree.

(Although, I already know that it WILL have a noticeable impact on my Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, if not my patience, too. :D)
 
Since going live, the summary-of-main-points thread has been viewed about 40 times per day. The view count has been reset a few times, as I consider how to bump the thread to the top of the board without creating a need for viewers who click the front-page link from having to scroll up. (vBulletin has no "bump" feature for threads.) Currently, I'm simply deleting and re-posting the scroll-instruction post.

There's an issue to be considered, for those who post an URL to that thread.

If you click the front-page link to access the thread for the URL, then you will get an URL that points to the scroll-instruction post:

http://www.freemathhelp.com/forum/threads/78006-Read-Before-Posting?p=322221#post322221


If you post the URL as is, then your link will become broken on the next bump because the pointer number will change -- just as the link posted above will become broken, in about 15 seconds, when I re-bump the thread after posting this message.)

The work-around is to delete the question mark and everything to the right of it:

http://www.freemathhelp.com/forum/threads/78006-Read-Before-Posting


This shorter URL will always point to the original post. Cheers
 
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