Subhotosh Khan, why bother typing posting rules reminders?

lookagain said:
Subhotosh Khan, why bother typing posting rules reminders?
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Perhaps in hopes that those looking for learning (and those who wish to support, rather than undermine, their growth) will feel supported, while those who are looking for a quick cheat are given a gentle nudge in a better direction. Perhaps in hopes of encouraging users' "better angels".

Just my guess.... ;)
 
stapel said:
Perhaps in hopes that those looking for learning (and those who wish to support, rather than undermine, their growth) will feel supported, while those who are looking for a quick cheat are given a gentle nudge in a better direction. Perhaps in hopes of encouraging users' "better angels".

Just my guess.... ;)
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That is better than a "guess."

Giving answers directly is what gives online tutoring a bad name. I am a volunteer here because I believe in the philosophy is "We give help - NOT answers."

I greatly respect lookagain for his precision and highly rigorous mathematical approach - which is often lacking in my own responses because (as a physicist) I tend more toward every day applications. I am always impressed by how clever Soroban is at presenting the most efficient and elegant approach (and being proud of it), because again I am likely to use a more brute-force approach. If I were in a math contest, I would certainly want to be on their team!

Unfortunately I think giving the complete answer interferes with the learning process. I feel frustrated when I am trying to get just the next step from a student, and a full blown (large type) solution appears in the thread.
 
I remind first-time users to review the posting guidelines because I hope that each first-time poster will then do so and thereby make life better for tutors and that student in the future. A first-time user obviously cannot view that message (or any other) as repetitious. If some tutors find repeating that message to be inappropriate, then those tutors should certainly feel free not to repeat it in their posts. I for one am going to continue to tell posters what we do and how, no matter how repetitious it may seem to some, unless and until some moderator tells me to stop doing so. But I agree with denis: the tutors are volunteers, and if the moderators desire a volunteer to stop posting or to stop posting in a certain way, then that is best done in a private conversation between moderators and the specific volunteer. As for the issue of whether giving an answer is helpful, I generally agree that guiding students to finding the answer on their own is preferable to giving a worked-out answer because I do not believe that most students will do the work of studying a fully worked-out answer. Furthermore, doing the work themselves gives students a sense of mastery that may help dispel the "mystery" of math. There are, however, exceptions. I tend to give answers on the arithmetic board because students who are having trouble with arithmetic are likely to be lost to mathematics entirely if further frustrated. I also give answers whenever, in my judgment, the poster is not a student, but rather someone with a specific, practical problem that needs a solution. The guy who wanted to buy a water tank with sufficient capacity to irrigate his garden was not looking for a tutorial on volumes. Finally, I give answers (if I can) when students ask questions that indicate confusion about basic concepts.
 
stapel said:
while those who are looking for a quick cheat are given a gentle nudge in a better direction
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Yes - to anywhere but here.

Soroban refuses to join our community's philosophy; at this point, I think that there is not much choice beyond ignoring his camera-ready-copy violations or banning him. :sad:
 
mmm4444bot said:
Soroban refuses to join our community's philosophy; at this point, I think that there is not much choice beyond ignoring his camera-ready-copy violations or banning him.
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Do you really propose that as a choice?
Soroban gives a d**m about the process of learning mathematics.
He clearly prefers giving someone a fish over teaching the person to fish.
That is a perfectly reasonable position: itis certainly typical of a community college approach.
It is just wrong, as far as I am concerned.
But then I think that mathematics is not a specter sport!
 
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pka said:
Do you really propose that as a choice?
Soroban gives a d**m about the process of learning mathematics.
He clearly prefers giving someone a fish over teaching the person to fish.
That is a perfectly reasonable position: itis certainly typical of a community college approach.
It is just wrong, as far as I am concerned.
But then I think that mathematics is not a specter sport!
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I beg to differ pka - I teach at community college and despise spoon-feeding.

Having said that - I do think Soroban is very valuable for this community. Some of the solutions that he proposed - taught me some stuff!

So at least for me - banning is not an option.
 
I just wrote this in another context. We were talking about a specifice demonstration to teach Whole Number Multiplication. It seems applicable, here.

"If we (U.S.A.) are being "killed" in math and science, and that isn't nearly as clear as some would have us believe, it is because of social pathology, not because of teaching methods. You cannot go into a math class with a welfare, entitlement attitude and expect to learn anything. Your expectation will be to have it poured into your brain - requiring no personal effort." - NLH

I see that I cannot totally separate social pathology from teaching methods. In the case of Soroban, it is a complete respect for the social pathology (and maybe some narcissism) that leads to the "camera ready" result and style. I think I've had this conversation a couple of times over the years, with Soroban, and I believe we have learned to tolerate each other pretty well. I don't like his camera-ready presentation and Soroban doesn't much like my confontational Pólya-ism.

The question we cannot solve comes from the fact that some students will learn best, quickest or deepest (however you wish to measure success) by a simple demonstration. I do not believe that ANY student ALWAYS learns best in this way. I do not believe ANY principle or subject is ALWAYS most successfully presented in this way. If we just terminate the presentation, we WILL miss these occasional opportunities. If we're okay missing these opportunities, than blocking Soroban is a clear solution. If there is not a sufficient Terms of Service agreement to make this decision, then we should write one.

Set up a rating system. Every time a poster gets a ping from a moderator, that poster has all subsequent posts delayed an additional 1 ms. This will allow virtually ANY style, but will eventually become discouraging to all but the most hardy violator.
 
tkhunny said:
The question we cannot solve comes from the fact that some students will learn best...by a simple demonstration.
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But were student learning the intention, it seems reasonable to expect that those certain posters would then provide "camera-ready" complete worked solutions to similar exercises, rather than merely providing something to copy down for hand-in. ;)
 
Denis said:
Mack's Daddy, how do you know? Perhaps he meant "dram"!

As far as "giving out solution" right away, I think there are cases
where that's ok...BUT there's only few of these cases.

Say something along the lines of:
Q: how do I boil water?
A: fill kettle with water then plug in the kettle.
Over and out.
No need for:
do you know what a kettle is?

We've all seen threads go to 3 pages or more....
was it always necessary?
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Sorry, I totally agree, but sometimes it helps a person to see the solution in order to understand the process of getting there. And I did show them how to get to a certain answer. And if he meant to say dram then there would be no need for the asterisks, as the asterisks indicate a profane word, and dram is not a curse word but merely a word meaning scottish whiskey or spirits.
 
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pka said:
Do you really propose that as a choice?
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If you're asking about the banning part, I am not proposing a permanent ban. My point is that our options are limited because soroban does not respect our community; those of us who advocate a different approach for helping students should (at this point) try to ignore soroban's camera-ready handouts because (1) he's not going to stop and (2) there seems to be mixed support amongst the regular contributors as to what to do about it.

However, anybody who feels that soroban is interfering with their efforts to tutor, in a specific thread, may certainly request a moderator to delete soroban's post(s) in that thread.

(Were I to have more-timely access to the site, I would simply moderate all of soroban's posts.)

I agree with Staple; I have no issues with providing a completely-worked solution to an example exercise, in cases where tutoring seems to fail or the person requesting help seems totally lost at the onset.
 
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