solving inequalities

mertz

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By using those referenced web pages, I'm not sure what your strategy is, but I can tell you that you've possibly made two mistakes inputing the expression log(x - 4) - cos(Pi*x).

In your given exercise, does log(x - 4) denote a base-10 logarithm?

That web site uses the notation log() to represent the natural logarithm, unless you click the special link.

So, if (in your exercise) log(x - 4) is supposed to be a base-10 logarithm, you did not click the provided link for changing the natural logarithm to base-10.

Secondly, when inputting functions, the entire argument needs to appear inside the parentheses.

cos(Pi*x)

Here's what the first referenced page shows, with the two changes above.

I suppose that you could take those numerical roots, along with the interval [4,6], to break the restricted domain into three sub-intervals, followed by testing values to determine in which sub-interval(s) the value of log(x - 4) is greater than cos(Pi*x).

You know that those numerical roots are values of x where the two expressions are equal, right?
 
\(\displaystyle Given: \ ln|x-4| \ \ge \ cos(\pi x), \ x \ = \ [4,6].\)

\(\displaystyle Then \ x \ = \ [4.644672, \ 5.6718081] \ will \ make \ the \ inequality \ true.\)

\(\displaystyle Thank \ you, \ trusty \ TI-89.\)
 
You know that those numerical roots are values of x where the two expressions are equal, right?

yes. i didn't understand much about the question but i got that part. we've done intervals before, but i think...actually i know i have to somehow solve the inequality first before uhm thinking about the graphs or the intervals. it's natural log not log base 10.

i see what you did there, big glenn the heavy, haha but i wish i knew how to get those responses. the question does ask me to use the calculator, but i'm pretty new to my t-83, and i would rather just know how to get the answer without using the calculator (if that's possible).

i'm trying to study for my upcoming exams, and inequalities, log equations, and identities are probably my weakest links. do you guys have any good sources i can read/view on those topics.
 
\(\displaystyle Look, \ if \ we \ let \ ln|x-4| \ = \ cos(\pi x), \ then \ |x-4| \ = \ e^{cos(\pi x)}\)

\(\displaystyle Thus, \ x-4 \ = \ e^{cos(\pi x)}, \ which \ can't \ be \ solved \ algebraically.\)

\(\displaystyle Hence, \ one \ ploy \ would \ be \ to \ use \ Newton's \ method, etc. \ or \ your \ trusty \ TI-83?\)

\(\displaystyle See \ graph \ below.\)

[attachment=0:33mptg29]jkl.jpg[/attachment:33mptg29]
 

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i will be reading up on newton's methods. oh i see the graph. see this is what i was trying to do on wolfram so i could see the shape of the graph and figure out the range of my intervals, but i couldn't even put in the right equation using wolfram and whenever i tried to use my graphing calculator i would get errors or the incorrect graphs. i would put y1= log (x-4), y2=cos(pi x) or try combining them together as y1= log(x-4)+cos(pi x)...

so my intervals would be 3.6-4, 4-4.6, 5.6-6, 6-6.6...something like that.

I get it! THANK YOU SO MUCH! you don't know how relieved i am, not because i hate not understanding things and i want to be able to figure everything out, but because i had this same graph hours ago and i wasn't making the connections. lol. my fault entirely. needless to say i am not going on to take calculus and vectors next semester.
 
mertz, isn't modern technology wonderful? Newton's method, although it will give you (usually) the same answer involves a lot of grunt work, which can be avoided by employing your trusty calculator.
 
mertz said:
i wish i knew how to get those [numerical approximations for roots of ln(x - 4) - cos(Pi*x) within 4<=x<=6]. the question does ask me to use the calculator, but i'm pretty new to my t-83, and i would rather just know how to get the answer without using the calculator (if that's possible).

I'm curious to know whether or not your instructor uses calculators in the classroom. I mean, would you expect an explicit instruction to employ a calculator, if this is what were expected?

So, I'm thinking that there is no algebraic method by formula and by hand to answer the exercise.

Glenn let the calculator do the grunt work, but you can also use your TI-83 to "assist" you, as you reason out the answer in your head.

Have you been exposed to the limit concept?

Are you familiar with the basic shape of both the log() function and a sinusoidal function?

Did you make any kind of rough sketch?

So, we know that the log() function comes up from **** and crosses the x-axis somewhere relatively near the Origin (on the right), as it elegantly slows it curve of ascent, continuing up to God only knows where.

Well, there's a cosine wave straddling the x-axis. So, the log() curve also passes through the cosine wave. It's reasonable, based on the relative shapes of these types of functions, that the log() curve intersects the wave more than once.

So, we don't know the location of the first point of intersection within the interval [4, 6], but we can evaluate each function at the endpoints of this restricted domain, so that we can at least know which function is "on top" (i.e., which function is greater than the other between x = 4 and x = 1st intersection and which function is "on top" between x = the last point of intersection and x = 6).

Note: The notation log() means the natural logarithm, from here on out.

L(x) = log(x - 4)

C(x) = cos(Pi*x)

We can't evaluate L(4) because it's undefined! But we can get as close to the number L(4) as we like: L(4.01) L(4.001) L(4.0001) et cetera.

L(4.01) = -4.6 [rounded]

Of course, the cosine of even multiples of Pi is 1, so that's easy.

C(Pi*4) = 1

Obviously, as the two functions are located just inside the restricted zone, at x = 4, the cosine wave is "on top" (i.e., the value of y = 1 is greater than the value of y = -4.6).

Using the same approach, to see what's happen'n where the functions exit the restricted zone gives more information.

Now comes the grunt work. Use the calculator to help you build a chart of the values of y for each, as they come closer together. You can zero-in on the first point of intersection sufficiently close to know when you've passed it, by examining the numerical data in your xy-chart for both functions L and C, as x goes from 4 to 6.

With 20 minutes of experimenting, refining rougher sketches into less-rough sketches, pluggin' and chuggin' out values for y, and using this quasi-limit approach to get a sense of how many and where the intersections are, we can do it, if our pre-requisite knowledge and skills are good.

I mean, after all, you did start by going to a computer program and typing in the info (albeit, incorrectly). What did you do with paper and pencil first, since the exercise does not instruct you to use technology? (That's a "rhetorical" 8-) )

Cheers ~ Mark
 
mmm444bot, if you look at my graph above, I just graphed the two functions and observed where they intersected. Then using my trusty TI-89, I found the points of intersection between [4,6] and walla, I'm done, no grunt work involved.
 
I saw your graph, big guy, before I posted.

I'm trying to explain to the original poster, who does not know how to use a graphing calculator, how it's possible to reason out the solution, using the scientific-functions of the calculator to build a table, knowing in their mind what the functions look like "in the vicinity".

If calculus students are not familiar with the shape of ln(x) and cos(x), then I don't expect any fruit.
 
BigGlenntheHeavy said:
walla ... no grunt work involved.

Whatsa walla? That half an onion?

Seriously, I meant no grunt work for you.

As Denis likes to say, "Kapish?"
 
lol. the only reason i mentioned the not using the calculator is because i've mostly gone through math without using a calculator and now that i'm doing the gr.12 math, i'm not used to using the graphing calculator (i didn't even read the manual. i didn't even know just how to do basic things on the graphing calculator) and using wolfram is a lot less intimidating because there's no calculator keypad with lots of different functions infront of me to get intimidated. so basically how i approached this was first drawing the graph of log(x-4) and then the cosine graph. those two graphs i knew how to draw. and then tried to understand how to the range limit of x=4, x=6 fit into the equation. i figured that it means the two graphs intersect at these two points or near these two points and that's why i was being asked to do an interval chart to figure out the exact values rounded to the nearest hundredth as my teacher asked for. i tried so many different ways to graph this on the t-83, and i did get the graph glenn showed me, more than 5 times, but i still didn't make the connection because i just kept thinking i have to solve this inequlity somehow by factoring/reducing or something. so basically i was just chasing my leg and coming up with various ludicrous scenarios because i know i don't understand the wording of the question and limits properly. i only got as far as i did basically by using whatever i've been taught throughout the chapters, and putting them together. i knew i wasn't putting the equation in properly on wolfram for it to give me the whole graph but after enough times inputing different modifications of the equations i understood that the log and cosine graph intersect where x is 4 and 6. everyone in the class uses calculators. they've had more experience using them than i have (that's not an excuse), uhm what else. i figured i couldn't solve this by hand and had to use the calculator...the instructions are to use a calculator, but since i don't know how to use mine, i wanted to know if there's a way by hand i could do this and just figure it out that way. but thanks for yours and glenn's help. it's much appreciated. i get it and it's kinda a huge weight off my back.
 
you guys are funny. isn't kapish the phonetic way of capisce (or as i like to say to remember the spelling, cap-i(s)ce)?
 
mertz said:
i wanted to know if there's a way by hand i could [make the requested table of values] and just figure it out that way.

Not really.

We've moved beyond slide rules and printed logarithmic tables.

You need a scientific calculator to approximate experiements like "which is greater: log(4.99 - 4) or cos(Pi*4.99)".

Building the table is grunt work. Using pre-requisite knowledge and skills, to reason out what be happen'n, is the fun part.

 
Re:

mmm4444bot said:
mertz said:
We've moved beyond slide rules and printed logarithmic tables.
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i think that's before my time.

you have any good links of websites i can visit to read about identities, and log equations (the more examples i do the better i get, but i'm sure i bombed at test i had last week because i confused all the rules and i messed up solving log equation with logs of different bases)?
 
Good examples and lessons online are the ones that you can understand.

I suggest googling keywords like:

trigonometric identities examples lessons practice

and

logarithmic equations examples lessons practice

Peruse, and skip pages that are not immediately helpful.

Many people here reference http://www.purplemath.com , and there are free videos at sites like http://www.khanacademy.org/
 
will do. i live at the purple math website and i'm constantly on other math websites trying to look for examples and lessons to whatever i'm being taught at school. it's the only reason i've made it through the entire course..and just figuring things out myself, but i needed help and that's how i came across this website via google.
 
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