need HELP on a general question regarding volume of a room??

[question]

guys here is the question there is a room with dimensions 20m*20m*20m = 8000m3now i need to fill this room with a gas for eg 3500 ppm or 3200 mg/m3so how much gas is required in kg and in liter.Also what if it is 12000 ppm then how much gas is required.In a real pickle would appreciate fast response

 

[wjm11]

guys here is the question there is a room with dimensions 20m*20m*20m = 8000m3now i need to fill this room with a gas for eg 3500 ppm or 3200 mg/m3so how much gas is required in kg and in liter.Also what if it is 12000 ppm then how much gas is required.In a real pickle would appreciate fast response

Your problem is not clearly stated, and what you have stated is confusing.

"Ppm" (parts per million) is a measure of concentration, while " 3200 mg/m3" is a measure of density (mass per unit volume). Which one are you interested in?

Secondly, asking how much gas is required depends not only on whether you are seeking a certain concentration or density, but also on the gas itself. You mention both mass (kg) and volume (liters). The volume of a gas depends on several factors: pressure, temperature, and the number of moles of gas -- as stated in the Ideal Gas Law: PV = nRT. This gas law is independent of the molar mass of the gas.

 

[question]

thank u for helping me clear my problem here it is refined.

Your problem is not clearly stated, and what you have stated is confusing.

"Ppm" (parts per million) is a measure of concentration, while " 3200 mg/m3" is a measure of density (mass per unit volume). Which one are you interested in?

Secondly, asking how much gas is required depends not only on whether you are seeking a certain concentration or density, but also on the gas itself. You mention both mass (kg) and volume (liters). The volume of a gas depends on several factors: pressure, temperature, and the number of moles of gas -- as stated in the Ideal Gas Law: PV = nRT. This gas law is independent of the molar mass of the gas.

i need about 12800ppm concentration of this gas for about 8000m3 at 25'C and at normal atmospheric pressure
i need the value both in volume and mass i.e liters and kg
or if you can provide in one i will convert it into another.

its molar mass is

28.010 g/mol
​

Density 789 kg/m3, liquid
1.250 kg/m3 at 0 °C, 1 atm
1.145 kg/m3 at 25 °C, 1 atm.

 

[wjm11]

i need about 12800ppm concentration of this gas for about 8000m3 at 25'C and at normal atmospheric pressure
i need the value both in volume and mass i.e liters and kg
or if you can provide in one i will convert it into another.

its molar mass is

28.010 g/mol
​

Density 789 kg/m3, liquid
1.250 kg/m3 at 0 °C, 1 atm
1.145 kg/m3 at 25 °C, 1 atm.

The gas you are describing here is Nitrogen, N2. If you want to know how much liquid N2 you must start with to fill an empty (evacuated) 8000 m^3 vessel at 25C, 1 atm, we have sufficient information.

(1.145 kg/m3)(8000m3) = 9160 kg of N2

(9160 kg)/(789 kg/m3) = 11.61 m3 of liquid N2

1 L = 1000 ml = 1000 cm3 = 10^3 cm3

1 m3 = (100 cm)^3 = 10^6 cm3 = 10^3 L

(11.61 m3)(10^3 L/1 m3) = 11,610 L of liquid N2

This is the amount of N2 that will result in "1.145 kg/m3 at 25 °C, 1 atm." -- if it is the only gas present. (If you add another gas, the pressure will go up.)

***

Now to address concentration. Concentration means one gas amount relative to another gas amount. You have not specified any other gas in the room. If N2 is the only gas, then the concentration IS 1,000,000 ppm.

 

[question]

The gas you are describing here is Nitrogen, N2. If you want to know how much liquid N2 you must start with to fill an empty (evacuated) 8000 m^3 vessel at 25C, 1 atm, we have sufficient information.

(1.145 kg/m3)(8000m3) = 9160 kg of N2

(9160 kg)/(789 kg/m3) = 11.61 m3 of liquid N2

1 L = 1000 ml = 1000 cm3 = 10^3 cm3

1 m3 = (100 cm)^3 = 10^6 cm3 = 10^3 L

(11.61 m3)(10^3 L/1 m3) = 11,610 L of liquid N2

This is the amount of N2 that will result in "1.145 kg/m3 at 25 °C, 1 atm." -- if it is the only gas present. (If you add another gas, the pressure will go up.)

***

Now to address concentration. Concentration means one gas amount relative to another gas amount. You have not specified any other gas in the room. If N2 is the only gas, then the concentration IS 1,000,000 ppm.

I am sorry but you have assumed wrong i am talking about carbon monoxide and here is a link to its Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide all the required details are on this page i need to know how much of carbon monoxide gas is required to fill up the room and by that i mean up to 13000ppm concentration of it in a normal room {kind of like just open the valve of the cylinder in a room) where air is present so that the color of product we store in it will change as suggested by our food tech...

really thankful of your earlier attempt.

 

[wjm11]

I am sorry but you have assumed wrong i am talking about carbon monoxide and here is a link to its Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide all the required details are on this page i need to know how much of carbon monoxide gas is required to fill up the room and by that i mean up to 13000ppm concentration of it in a normal room {kind of like just open the valve of the cylinder in a room) where air is present so that the color of product we store in it will change as suggested by our food tech...

really thankful of your earlier attempt.

Ah, CO, not N2. They are nearly the same in molar mass and have similar liquid densities. My above calculations would still hold true, but they are not what you desire.

I should mention that 13000 ppm CO is a lethal concentration; it will kill a human being in 1-3 minutes. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/carbon-monoxide-d_893.html

Also, CO is a color enhancer for meats (it will keep meat read for extended periods of time), but it is not a food preservative. Though the meat looks fresh because it is red, it still ages and will go bad. That aging/decay just becomes undetectable through appearance alone. CO2 and other preservatives will slow the decay of meat.

Re concentration: food scientists at the Iowa State University determined five years ago that .5% CO was sufficient to maintain red color. ( http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070319202542.htm ) : "A lower level of carbon dioxide – above 40 percent with the approximately 0.5 percent carbon monoxide level added to prevent discoloring – will help inhibit bacteria but appears to do so independently." Likewise, a study report in the European Union in 2001 referenced CO concentration of only .3% -.5% CO. ( http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/scf/out112_en.pdf )

Your suggested 13000 ppm is 13,000/1,000,000 = .013 = 1.3% . This is over 2.5 times higher concentration than suggested by the Iowa European Union research (if you are using it for meat color preservation).

I am not familiar enough with the meat packaging industry to know how .5% CO is achieved in packaging, but it would seem imprudent to create a large room full of toxic gas that will kill somebody in 1-3 minutes. (Just my uninformed opinion.) If you are contemplating this, you should consult a chemist and HAZMAT expert -- and likely legal experts as well.

The amount I calculated before was for a 100% concentration of one gas. You would only need "about" 1/200 of that amount to achieve a .5% concentration if you were to " just open the valve of the cylinder in a room where air is present"; the increased amount of gas molecules in the room would change the pressure very little, even in a sealed room.

 

[question]

Ah, CO, not N2. They are nearly the same in molar mass and have similar liquid densities. My above calculations would still hold true, but they are not what you desire.

I should mention that 13000 ppm CO is a lethal concentration; it will kill a human being in 1-3 minutes. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/carbon-monoxide-d_893.html

Also, CO is a color enhancer for meats (it will keep meat read for extended periods of time), but it is not a food preservative. Though the meat looks fresh because it is red, it still ages and will go bad. That aging/decay just becomes undetectable through appearance alone. CO2 and other preservatives will slow the decay of meat.

Re concentration: food scientists at the Iowa State University determined five years ago that .5% CO was sufficient to maintain red color. ( http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070319202542.htm ) : "A lower level of carbon dioxide – above 40 percent with the approximately 0.5 percent carbon monoxide level added to prevent discoloring – will help inhibit bacteria but appears to do so independently." Likewise, a study report in the European Union in 2001 referenced CO concentration of only .3% -.5% CO. ( http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/scf/out112_en.pdf )

Your suggested 13000 ppm is 13,000/1,000,000 = .013 = 1.3% . This is over 2.5 times higher concentration than suggested by the Iowa European Union research (if you are using it for meat color preservation).

I am not familiar enough with the meat packaging industry to know how .5% CO is achieved in packaging, but it would seem imprudent to create a large room full of toxic gas that will kill somebody in 1-3 minutes. (Just my uninformed opinion.) If you are contemplating this, you should consult a chemist and HAZMAT expert -- and likely legal experts as well.

The amount I calculated before was for a 100% concentration of one gas. You would only need "about" 1/200 of that amount to achieve a .5% concentration if you were to " just open the valve of the cylinder in a room where air is present"; the increased amount of gas molecules in the room would change the pressure very little, even in a sealed room.

Thank you
but i already know that 13000ppm is a dangerous concentration but our workers are provided with state of the art gas mask which are military grade also time spent by our worker is minimum in the chamber



but what i needed to ask u was that as your final conclusion co gas (using my general term opening the cylinder in room) required to fill my 8000m3 will amount upto how much, also i would like to know
the amount of gas required for a room 20*20*20 in feet.
thank u

 

[question]

please give Ur conclusion

Ah, CO, not N2. They are nearly the same in molar mass and have similar liquid densities. My above calculations would still hold true, but they are not what you desire.

I should mention that 13000 ppm CO is a lethal concentration; it will kill a human being in 1-3 minutes. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/carbon-monoxide-d_893.html

Also, CO is a color enhancer for meats (it will keep meat read for extended periods of time), but it is not a food preservative. Though the meat looks fresh because it is red, it still ages and will go bad. That aging/decay just becomes undetectable through appearance alone. CO2 and other preservatives will slow the decay of meat.

Re concentration: food scientists at the Iowa State University determined five years ago that .5% CO was sufficient to maintain red color. ( http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070319202542.htm ) : "A lower level of carbon dioxide – above 40 percent with the approximately 0.5 percent carbon monoxide level added to prevent discoloring – will help inhibit bacteria but appears to do so independently." Likewise, a study report in the European Union in 2001 referenced CO concentration of only .3% -.5% CO. ( http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/scf/out112_en.pdf )

Your suggested 13000 ppm is 13,000/1,000,000 = .013 = 1.3% . This is over 2.5 times higher concentration than suggested by the Iowa European Union research (if you are using it for meat color preservation).

I am not familiar enough with the meat packaging industry to know how .5% CO is achieved in packaging, but it would seem imprudent to create a large room full of toxic gas that will kill somebody in 1-3 minutes. (Just my uninformed opinion.) If you are contemplating this, you should consult a chemist and HAZMAT expert -- and likely legal experts as well.

The amount I calculated before was for a 100% concentration of one gas. You would only need "about" 1/200 of that amount to achieve a .5% concentration if you were to " just open the valve of the cylinder in a room where air is present"; the increased amount of gas molecules in the room would change the pressure very little, even in a sealed room.

Thank u for your for your analysis but our production process is different and a commercial secret but i assure u that our workers are provided with full protection.

i would like to know your final conclusion regarding the question i.e
for attaining 13000 ppm of concentration in a room with volume 8000m3 i need how much of co gas and if the rooms volume is decreased to 20*20*20 ft(feet) =8000ft3 then how much gas will be required {please note that we will be opening the cylinders of gas in a sealed room but it is not evacuated i.e it is a normal storage facility.}