Is "Least upper bound axiom" an axiom or only a proved theorem?

MaxMath

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It is referred to as an axiom (Axiom 7) here, which makes me wonder why this can be taken as an axiom (so either it does not need a proof, or it has not been proved but is just taken as a starting point). From the lesson learned from the Archimedes 'Axiom', I now take it (its status as an axiom) with a pinch of salt.

In this question and answer, it's said "This has been proved in preceding sections of the book", which seems to mean the proceeding statement (essentially the same as the "Axiom 7") is proved.

Is it indeed an Axiom or not?
 
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As a sidenote, on this page about "Archimedean property", in the proof of Corollary 3, between "Furthermore, " and "Thus", "[imath]y - 1/n < a[/imath]" and "[imath]x < y - 1/n < a[/imath]" should read "[imath]y - 1/n \leq a[/imath]" and "[imath]x < y - 1/n \leq a[/imath]", respectively.
 
First, one modern usage of “axiom” is relative to some text. All it means in that sense is something that is considered true throughout that text. The most famous example is Euclid’s parallel postulate. It was treated as true in Euclid’s Elements. It is not considered descriptive of actual space by modern physicists except as a frequently useful approximation. In a different usage, “axiom” means a proposition that is treated as true without proof in many texts. Virtually every text book on elementary algebra implicitly treats certain propositions (the “ordered field axioms”) as true. This does not mean that all of those propositions are unprovable; it means that frequently no proof is given even if one exists.

Second, the status of certain propositions has changed throughout history. Something that one mathematician thought was an unprovable axiom two thousand years ago may be a theorem in some later mathematician‘s work. Mathematics is progressive in many ways.

If you jump around between sources, there is no promise that each source uses the same word the same way.
 
I did not (yet) read the links that you posted.
I've seen the following many times: In book 1, they state a definition and then proof a number of theorems while in book 2 they use one of the theorems in book 1 as a definition and then prove theorems. One of the theorems in book 2 is actually the definition in book 1.
Possibly this is what is going on with your axiom/theorem(?)
 
I did not (yet) read the links that you posted.
I've seen the following many times: In book 1, they state a definition and then proof a number of theorems while in book 2 they use one of the theorems in book 1 as a definition and then prove theorems. One of the theorems in book 2 is actually the definition in book 1.
Possibly this is what is going on with your axiom/theorem(?)
Your point is illustrated in the linked page. It uses the axiom of the existence of the least upper bound to prove the theorem about the existence of the greatest lower bound. But if you adopt the latter as an axiom you could prove the former as a theorem.
 
@Steven G, Thanks for your insight. That's not the case here; these sources are isolated not interrelated, though they have something in common.

@NotJeffM, Thank you. That's very true. Context is important and the subject of math has a long history.

@blamocur, Thank you. That's correct indeed. That's exactly why I wondered why "Axiom 7" can be taken as an axiom supposedly without needing a proper proof before we move on.

For convenience, I now include this Axiom 7 and its associated Theorem 8 here—

Axiom 7 (Least upper bound axiom). Each nonempty set of real numbers that has an upper bound has a least upper bound.
Theorem 8 Each nonempty set of real numbers that has a lower bound has a greatest lower bound.


To make it clearer, the central question is (regardless of the semantics of "axiom")—

Is this "Axiom 7" truly an axiom (that is, a proof of it is not necessary or has not been found) or not?
 
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I wondered why "Axiom 7" can be taken as an axiom supposedly without needing a proper proof before we move on.
Is this "Axiom 7" truly an axiom (that is, a proof of it is not necessary or has not been found) or not?

Yes, it is an axiom (in this context), simply because they chose to use it that way. Within their development of the subject, they don't prove it; and presumably it can't be proved from the other axioms they state. That's all it takes.

"Axiomaticity" is not absolute, but relative; it depends on what other axioms are being used in a particular book.

On the other hand, if someone chooses to prove something they call an "axiom", then they are just using the word "axiom" as its historical name, and not actually saying that it is an axiom in their own system.

But that's what others have said already; I'm not sure why you're still asking. I think you're missing the concept of context, especially as explained in post #4.

You may possibly find this discussion of the similar issue of postulates in geometry texts: Who Moved My Postulate? (The other article mentioned in the first line is also relevant.)
 
Yes, it is an axiom (in this context), simply because they chose to use it that way. Within their development of the subject, they don't prove it; and presumably it can't be proved from the other axioms they state. That's all it takes.

"Axiomaticity" is not absolute, but relative; it depends on what other axioms are being used in a particular book.

On the other hand, if someone chooses to prove something they call an "axiom", then they are just using the word "axiom" as its historical name, and not actually saying that it is an axiom in their own system.

But that's what others have said already; I'm not sure why you're still asking. I think you're missing the concept of context, especially as explained in post #4.

You may possibly find this discussion of the similar issue of postulates in geometry texts: Who Moved My Postulate? (The other article mentioned in the first line is also relevant.)
Ok. Thanks. The relativity of axiomaticity is well understood. Let me ask another way—

Is there a proof of this "Axiom 7", be it indeed an axiom (then the answer is obviously no, if this is in an absolute sense) or only a theorem, on Earth anywhere? Please feel free to simply ignore my question if this seems unreasonable. :) No obligations are assumed.

The answer is probably yes. I will need a bit more reading. (Well, not only a bit, it's a lot!)
 
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Can this be considered a proof of it? It's based on an 'assumption' that "every Cauchy sequence of real numbers converges" (I believe there is a proof of it?). The relevant part is shown in the snippet attached.
 

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Is there a proof of this "Axiom 7", be it indeed an axiom (then the answer is obviously no, if this is in an absolute sense) or only a theorem, on Earth anywhere?
Can this be considered a proof of it?
You still don't seem to understand. Nothing is inherently an axiom; anything can be an axiom if someone chooses to use it that way. There is no "absolute sense".

You had already shown an example of a proof; you can prove it if you take something else as an axiom, and make this a theorem.

Wikipedia:

An axiom, postulate, or assumption is a statement that is taken to be true, to serve as a premise or starting point for further reasoning and arguments.​
... In the modern view, axioms may be any set of formulas, as long as they are not known to be inconsistent.​
 
Thank you @Dr.Peterson.

You still don't seem to understand.
One can never understand something exactly the same way as another. Surely I don't understand exactly the way you do. That's ok. Also, I don't understand why you need to repeat the relativity of axiomaticity, which is well understood (at least I think).

There is no "absolute sense".
Glad I used "if", just like in a sentence such as "if there is a perfect world, ...".

You had already shown an example of a proof.
Here indeed I don't understand which example you are referring to. If you mean the one in #9, you are simply trying to make someone understand (when they do not*) just because you understand or you think it's obvious. If you mean Therom 8—taking it as an axiom, then obviously Axiom 7 can be proved using Therom 8, just like how Therom 8 is proved based on Axiom 7—but do you think that is meaningful? I don't think so, because I can then chase up and ask, can you please prove Axiom 8?

* Note: by saying "when they don't", I mean "I don't". But it's not I don't understand the relativity of axiomaticity, it's that I'm not 100% sure if this is a good proof, or the most known, or the best, proof. If I did understand, there would not be a need for me to ask this question.

By the way, by saying I accept (or understand) the relativity of axiomaticity, this does not mean I fully agree, or I fully appreciate, or that I can prove this statement as true. I just accept it as true just like an axiom. Saying this is because I'm not 100% sure if there is no absolute axiom, or to say in another way, if all "axioms" can be proved based on other axioms or theorems. I'm not sure about this. It appears a philosophical question to me.

Now, the Axioms of Euclidean Plane Geometry come to my mind, like this page. One "axiom" is stated as "A straight line may be drawn between any two points". Are you able to come up with a proof of this axiom or theorem?
 
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Thank you @Dr.Peterson.


One can never understand something exactly the same way as another. Surely I don't understand exactly the way you do. That's ok. Also, I don't understand why you need to repeat the relativity of axiomaticity, which is well understood (at least I think).


Glad I used "if", just like in a sentence such as "if there is a perfect world, ...".


Here indeed I don't understand which example you are referring to. If you mean the one in #9, you are simply trying to make someone understand (when they do not*) just because you understand or you think it's obvious. If you mean Therom 8—taking it as an axiom, then obviously Axiom 7 can be proved using Therom 8, just like how Therom 8 is proved based on Axiom 7—but do you think that is meaningful? I don't think so, because I can then chase up and ask, can you please prove Axiom 8?

* Note: by saying "when they don't", I mean "I don't". But it's not I don't understand the relativity of axiomaticity, it's that I'm not 100% sure if this is a good proof, or the most known, or the best, proof. If I did understand, there would not be a need for me to ask this question.

By the way, by saying I accept (or understand) the relativity of axiomaticity, this does not mean I fully agree, or I fully appreciate, or that I can prove this statement as true. I just accept it as true just like an axiom. Saying this is because I'm not 100% sure if there is no absolute axiom, or to say in another way, if all "axioms" can be proved based on other axioms or theorems. I'm not sure about this. It appears a philosophical question to me.

Now, the Axioms of Euclidean Plane Geometry come to my mind, like this page. One "axiom" is stated as "A straight line may be drawn between any two points". Are you able to come up with a proof of this axiom or theorem?
Let’s start with what Dr. Peterson said “Nothing is INHERENTLY an axiom.” Axioms are relative to a particular text and to the history of mathematics. What was not provable for Newton was provable by later mathematicians.

I suspect what you are really asking is whether there is a set of axioms that today‘s mathematicians generally agree to be SUFFICIENT to develop today’s mathematics. It is my understanding that that was the exact aim of Bourbaki (I do not know if today’s mathematicians generally agree whether that effort was successful). If you are interested in a modern development of plane geometry, my understanding is that you should start with Hilbert. Absolutely no one would suggest that Euclid is a place to look for a rigorous development of geometry as rigor is understood today. Historically, modern rigor developed out of a recognition that Euclid’s standard of rigor was not sufficient for modern mathematics.
 
I suspect what you are really asking is whether there is a set of axioms that today‘s mathematicians generally agree to be SUFFICIENT to develop today’s mathematics. It is my understanding that that was the exact aim of Bourbaki (I do not know if today’s mathematicians generally agree whether that effort was successful). If you are interested in a modern development of plane geometry, my understanding is that you should start with Hilbert. Absolutely no one would suggest that Euclid is a place to look for a rigorous development of geometry as rigor is understood today. Historically, modern rigor developed out of a recognition that Euclid’s standard of rigor was not sufficient for modern mathematics.
What I'm asking has always been if there is a (proper) proof of the least upper bound axiom (or theorem). The discussion about the meaning of axiom is only a by-product. By saying "proof", the one that uses "Theorem 8" as the basis, I don't think that's a proper proof (or a proper proof I'm asking about); it's only a circular argument.

I'm unable to comment on the rigour of Euclidean geometry, or that of modern mathematics—I'm far too ignorant to be able to. I only refer to one of its "axioms" as an example of those for which there may not be a proof of whatever form, based on whatever other axioms of theorems. (I say "may", because I'm not sure. And as I already said, this looks like a philosophical question to me. Moreover, this is not at the centre of my question.)
 
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What I'm asking has always been if there is a (proper) proof of the least upper bound axiom (or theorem). The discussion about the meaning of axiom is only a by-product. By saying "proof", the one that uses "Theorem 8" as the basis, I don't think that's a proper proof (or a proper proof I'm asking about); it's only a circular argument.

I'm unable to comment on the rigour of Euclidean geometry, or that of modern mathematics—I'm far too ignorant to be able to. I only refer to one of its "axioms" as an example of those for which there may not be a proof of whatever form, based on whatever other axioms of theorems. (I say "may", because I'm not sure. And as I already said, this looks like a philosophical question to me. Moreover, this is not at the centre of my question.)
In post #9, you quoted from Wikipedia, which gave a proof. So you have answered your own question. This is why I am baffled by your continuing to ask this. I think what you need to understand is why something can be both proved (in one book) and assumed in another.

Just above what you quoted, you will have seen this:

The least-upper-bound property is equivalent to other forms of the completeness axiom, such as the convergence of Cauchy sequences or the nested intervals theorem. The logical status of the property depends on the construction of the real numbers used: in the synthetic approach, the property is usually taken as an axiom for the real numbers (see least upper bound axiom); in a constructive approach, the property must be proved as a theorem, either directly from the construction or as a consequence of some other form of completeness.​

The source you originally asked about says the same thing:

The completeness axiom. There are various different logically equivalent statements that can be used as an axiom of the completeness of the real numbers. We’ll use one called the least upper bound axiom.​

Axiom 7 (Least upper bound axiom). Each nonempty set of real numbers that has an upper bound has a least upper bound.​

What these are both saying is that you can take this as an axiom, and prove other things from it; or you can take some other statement as an axiom (as in the Wikipedia proof that you quoted), and prove this as a theorem. These are all equivalent.

This is what we have been saying: You can develop this topic in various ways, some of which take this axiom, some of which take that axiom, and you end up with the same results. It is not a circular argument; it is a choice of one of several starting points for a "circle".

You insist that the meaning of "axiom" is a side issue; but that is exactly what you need to understand in order to answer your question. An axiom is not, as I suspect you assume, something that is known to be true without proof; it is something that is accepted as true, as a basis for a systematic development of a topic. If you don't want to believe the real numbers work a certain way, you can reject the associated axioms, and develop a different theory; if you consider some other axiom more natural than this one, you can use that as your starting point and be just as convinced of everything that follows. But you need to have some starting point. And that is what an axiom is.

In order to consider something in mathematics to be "true", you have to start by accepting some set of facts as true. They are not necessarily unprovable (because you could start with something else and prove them from that); they are simply unproved in your system. In the page I referred you to previously, I said the link on the first line could also be relevant; that was Why Does Geometry Start With Unproved Assumptions?, which is indeed something you need to know. I assume you haven't read either.

So the direct answer to your question is, Yes, it can be proved, and you have seen such a proof. But, no, you can't prove it as part of the presentation in which it was taken as an axiom. In such a proof, you need to have something else that you are using as an axiom.
 
Thanks again. There is nothing new to me here.

I hear your point on what I referred to as a "circular argument". I did feel that may raise disputes. But I think this is about semantics, and I believe you understand what I mean. But if you don't, that's ok. No point in pursuing this further.

I'm not interested in the distinction between 'provability' and acceptance without considering provability.
 
What I'm asking has always been if there is a (proper) proof of the least upper bound axiom (or theorem). The discussion about the meaning of axiom is only a by-product. By saying "proof", the one that uses "Theorem 8" as the basis, I don't think that's a proper proof (or a proper proof I'm asking about); it's only a circular argument.
No, you clearly do not know what “axiom” means: there is no proof for an axiom by definition.
 
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