Can we make it easier for posters to follow the guidelines?

lev888

lev888

Elite Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2018
Messages
2,995
Let's say you ordered something at amazon.com and never got a confirmation email. After an hour on the phone a representative tells you: "Ah, Mr. Smith, you forgot to enter your zip code!"
If this could happen amazon would have to triple its customer support staff.
Why doesn't it happen? Easy - you can't place an order without providing your complete address, including the zip code.
I looked at recent posts in Beginning Algebra, Intermediate/Advanced Algebra, Geometry and Trig. Out of 62 posts 34 don't follow guidelines. That's a lot of time wasted by tutors asking for additional information and a lot of time spent by posters waiting for help.
Yes, posters should read the Read Before Posting threads. And we should read all the owner's manuals and user agreements. LOL, as the kids say.
Solution: if forum software allows, I would suggest to split the main post section into two: 1. Problem 2. My work/context. If either is empty the Post button should not work.
 
lev888 said:
Let's say you ordered something at amazon.com and never got a confirmation email. After an hour on the phone a representative tells you: "Ah, Mr. Smith, you forgot to enter your zip code!"
If this could happen amazon would have to triple its customer support staff.
Why doesn't it happen? Easy - you can't place an order without providing your complete address, including the zip code.
I looked at recent posts in Beginning Algebra, Intermediate/Advanced Algebra, Geometry and Trig. Out of 62 posts 34 don't follow guidelines. That's a lot of time wasted by tutors asking for additional information and a lot of time spent by posters waiting for help.
Yes, posters should read the Read Before Posting threads. And we should read all the owner's manuals and user agreements. LOL, as the kids say.
Solution: if forum software allows, I would suggest to split the main post section into two: 1. Problem 2. My work/context. If either is empty the Post button should not work.
Click to expand...
This may require "expensive" modification of the software!

and

You can bring the horse to the water but drinking is a different issue!!
 
lev888 said:
… split the main post section into two: 1. Problem 2. My work/context. If either is empty the Post button should not work.
Click to expand...
I like the concept, lev, but I don't think XenForo provides for that type of customization.

As a moderator, my system is simple. If a new-member thread in the moderation queue shows no effort, I delete the thread and notify the member to read and follow the guidelines. (If the thread contains a lot of text or formatting, I bounce the copy back to the author by private conversation, and I explain why.) For members whose posts are no longer being moderated, I send them a reminder about the guidelines, and, if they continue to ignore their responsibilities, then I start deleting those threads and append a note as to why.

I've been deleting (or bouncing) about a dozen threads a week, but recently I haven't been on the boards much because I've had to return to work. (The lion's share of moderation is now being handled by our other active moderators.) However, it is my pleasure to continue deleting threads that contain no efforts, as I have time. I note also that more than half of the new members whose threads I delete never repost.

?
 
Subhotosh Khan said:
This may require "expensive" modification of the software!

and

You can bring the horse to the water but drinking is a different issue!!
Click to expand...
The keyword in your response is may. Can we find out for certain what the cost will be? Are we sure that this hasn't been somewhere else and we can use that program?

Yes, you are correct that we can bring the students to the forum but we can't make them post correctly. But if we do not have to ask for additional information from the poster this will be good for the helpers. Sure we will lose a lot of students and we need to figure out how to prevent this? This is a complicated situation and the solution should be carefully thought out.
 
At my former site, we had three submission fields, summarized as Question, Difficulty, and Work (though we didn't automatically reject submissions with an empty field), and a good number of people just copied the same thing into all three. One issue is that some questions are hard to split up that way (even into only two parts), so it just made students jump through another hoop that hurt the diligent more than the lazy, by making them worry whether they had filled in the form correctly.

I do believe the automatic acknowledgement message included a reminder of the rules, which could help a bit. I think it said something like, "While you wait for a response, you might want to check that you have included all the information we need."

Perhaps the fact that they can't see their posts (and edit them or add to the thread) until they have been moderated, makes things a little harder here.
 
blamocur said:
I've finally found a very helpful page (https://www.freemathhelp.com/forum/help/), but it took me forever to find it. Would not it make sense to have it linked from the top (home) page?

Similarly, there are a couple of important posts with guidelines (https://www.freemathhelp.com/forum/...hreads/guidelines-summary.109845/#post-422890) which seem to merit a separate page of their own with a link from the home page.
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I agree with you.

I would have acted on your suggestion - but it is above my pay-grade!!
 
blamocur said:
I've finally found a very helpful page (https://www.freemathhelp.com/forum/help/)
Click to expand...
Finally? You could've asked. ;)

The 'Help' link appears at the bottom of every forum page (as it does at most web sites).

Similarly, there are a couple of important posts with guidelines (https://www.freemathhelp.com/forum/...hreads/guidelines-summary.109845/#post-422890) which seem to merit a separate page of their own
Click to expand...
The link above is broken. (You mentioned two posts. Are they both in that same thread?)

This post is also titled 'Guidelines Summary'. Is it what you'd seen? If so, it's already linked on the front page (albeit not near the top).

The only changes that moderators can make in the forum involve features that have already been built into the software by the Xenforo developers and for which moderators have permission to access. In other words, we cannot add any element to a page unless the element already exists as an option. When the site's owner upgraded to Xenforo from vBulletin, moderators lost most access. At that time, we were told that a daily administrator would be assigned to the forum (with access to address issues in the database and forum features), but it never happened.

I've tried asking the owner to provide guideline links in the new-member email, but (last time I'd checked) that still hasn't happened, either.

In other words, we're all pretty much on our own here, and moderators remain handcuffed and hamstrung.

PS: I've been considering a complete overhaul of the forum guidelines threads (they both contain obsolete information, and our basic expectations of new members apparently need to be more strongly worded). Adding links to those help pages is something that moderators can still do. I need help writing the content, however, but it's always been very hard finding people willing to help with administrative issues.

?
 
mmm4444bot said:
Finally? You could've asked. ;)

The 'Help' link appears at the bottom of every page (as it does at most web sites).


The link above is broken. (You mentioned two posts. Are they both in that same thread?)

This post is also titled 'Guidelines Summary'. Is it what you'd seen? If so, it's already linked on the front page (albeit not near the top).

The only changes that moderators can make in the forum involve features that have already been built into the software by the Xenforo developers and for which moderators have permission to access. In other words, we cannot add any element to a page unless the element already exists as an option. When the site's owner upgraded to Xenforo from vBulletin, moderators lost most access. At that time, we were told that a daily administrator would be assigned to the forum (with access to address issues in the database and forum features), but it never happened.

I've tried asking the owner to provide guideline links in the new-member email, but (last time I'd checked) that still hasn't happened, either.

In other words, we're all pretty much on our own here, and moderators remain handcuffed and hamstrung.

PS: I've been considering a complete overhaul of the forum guidelines threads (they both contain obsolete information, and our basic expectations of new members apparently need to be more strongly worded). Adding links to those help pages is something that moderators can still do. I need help writing the content, however, but it's always been very hard finding people willing to help with administrative issues.

?
Click to expand...
Oops, my fault: I was only searching at the top of the home page. I didn't know that Help links are usually placed at the bottom.
And sorry for the broken links. They were supposed to point to your posts ("Read before posting" and "Guidelines Summary"). The posts are not too difficult to find, but I thought a separate page(s) (linked from the "Help" page, just like "Terms and rules"?) would make more sense.
Personally, now that I've found the pages in question I can live with the current layout. But some of the future new members might end up going on the same hunt as I did. Obviously, the smarter ones will ask :)
Thank you.
 
mmm4444bot said:
Finally? You could've asked. ;)

The 'Help' link appears at the bottom of every page (as it does at most web sites).


The link above is broken. (You mentioned two posts. Are they both in that same thread?)

This post is also titled 'Guidelines Summary'. Is it what you'd seen? If so, it's already linked on the front page (albeit not near the top).

The only changes that moderators can make in the forum involve features that have already been built into the software by the Xenforo developers and for which moderators have permission to access. In other words, we cannot add any element to a page unless the element already exists as an option. When the site's owner upgraded to Xenforo from vBulletin, moderators lost most access. At that time, we were told that a daily administrator would be assigned to the forum (with access to address issues in the database and forum features), but it never happened.

I've tried asking the owner to provide guideline links in the new-member email, but (last time I'd checked) that still hasn't happened, either.

In other words, we're all pretty much on our own here, and moderators remain handcuffed and hamstrung.

PS: I've been considering a complete overhaul of the forum guidelines threads (they both contain obsolete information, and our basic expectations of new members apparently need to be more strongly worded). Adding links to those help pages is something that moderators can still do. I need help writing the content, however, but it's always been very hard finding people willing to help with administrative issues.

?
Click to expand...
I could not find the 'Help' link on the Home page (it is available on the Message Board though). Maybe it is OK since the Help seems to be specific to the forum. Also, the Site Map linked from the Home page looks rather empty.

As for helping with the contents I could give it a try, but A) I would need some hand holding at the beginning since I am new to this forum, and B) someone would have to proof-read my stuff since English is not my first language. Please let me know if you think I might still be of help.

Thank you.
 
blamocur said:
I could not find the 'Help' link on the Home page
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When I'd said "every page", I was talking about the forum pages. (I've updated that post, to clarify.) I don't really like the main site, so I don't go there any more.

As for helping with the contents I could give it a try
Click to expand...
Thank you. As I see it, the main forum issue is getting new members to post more than just an exercise statement. How can we reword the guidelines to achieve a much higher ratio of original posts that include efforts shown and/or specific questions asked?

?
 
As for helping with the contents I could give it a try
Click to expand...
I am not giving up, at least not yet. But when I first read the guidelines and the summary I found them well written, and could not see a simple way to improve them. But while reading and writing more posts I started collecting notes and questions which I plan to post later, probably in a separate thread in case it generates further discussion.
 
After joining FreeMathHelp a month and a half ago I’ve been collecting notes and questions about the functionality and the structure of the forum. I suspect that some of the items in the list reflect my ignorance (in which case please don’t hesitate to post enlightening replies), but, hopefully, at least some of them provide a fresh look and might even help improve the overall experience. Thank you in advance for your replies!
  1. The longer the guidelines document the less likely it is to be read :( I.e., make the introductory part/paragraph as short as possible (but no shorter than that:). Maybe use “spoiler” tags in the Summary to show a list of headers but hide expanded explanations.? (Yes, this is somewhat ironic since my list of notes is getting quite long :)
  2. For the first time reader it is not always obvious that “READ BEFORE POSTING” and “Guidelines Summary” are related, i.e., one is a summary of another. How about “Guidelines (Read Before Posting)” and “Guidelines Summary” ? I also believe that they belong in a separate folder accessible from the top page, as opposed to being posts in the forum’s threads.
  3. Do we need separate guidelines for tutors/responders, especially for new ones? I've already made a fool of myself several times. Not a big deal, but might help to reduce noise.
  4. Do we need a zero-effort response to zero-effort posts? E.g., a copy-paste answer. Or maybe just ignore them? How about deleting “raw” posts altogether or moving them to a separate category/box? I.e., send the poster a standard message with a pointer to the guidelines, and tell them to try better. The authority for such action would be limited to “trusted tutors”, whatever that means, and the rest of the forum participants would not have to waste time reading such posts.
  5. Not sure we want to spend time on checking all posters’ homework. I would rather spend time on helping people understand math concepts rather than on perfecting their grades. Making errors is a very important part of the learning process, but finding those errors is much easier for a teacher who assigned the homework than it is for the forum tutors. Having said that, I know that the errors come in different flavors. Some are trivial, like typos, but some reveal important misconceptions and can be addressed by the forum. Any thoughts on how to differentiate those two types? Ask the posters what they need help understanding?
  6. Request for the “tutorees”: don’t hesitate to provide feedback. This helps the tutors to learn what works and what does not. I.e., “Please help us to help you better”.
  7. Work problems: some people fish for free work instead of free tutoring. I don’t mind doing occasional free work when I find the problem interesting, but I am not sure that this is the purpose of the forum. Do we need guidelines for this type of posts? How about a special category? Or maybe the same approach as with homework: “we can help you learn but we will not do your work for you” ?
  8. Can we use something like “likely to be ignored” marker and/or categories for posts which do not follow the guidelines? Once it is marked all other tutors can save their time by ignoring the post. Such markers could then be removed once the original poster has complied with the guidance.
  9. Does tagging threads make sense? I often ignore threads with multiple responses, but occasionally find that I can be helpful too. I wonder if there is a way to mark posts with different tags, like “Resolved”, “Waiting for the original poster response”, “Ignorable”, “Additional input needed”, “Large problem”, etc.?
  10. I believe that the “Help” folder can be expanded, at the very least with an item on typesetting Math. I know it exists as a post, but having it as an item in the "Help" folder seems more natural.
 
blamocur said:
I am not giving up, at least not yet. But when I first read the guidelines and the summary I found them well written, and could not see a simple way to improve them. But while reading and writing more posts I started collecting notes and questions which I plan to post later, probably in a separate thread in case it generates further discussion.
Click to expand...
Hoping to learn from replice by more experienced members I've finally posted my list above (post #13). If my hope materializes I'll take a stab at editing the guidelines.
 
mmm4444bot said:
When I'd said "every page", I was talking about the forum pages. (I've updated that post, to clarify.)


Thank you. As I see it, the main forum issue is getting new members to post more than just an exercise statement. How can we reword the guidelines to achieve a much higher ratio of original posts that include efforts shown and/or specific questions asked?

?
Click to expand...
I think the problem is that many new members don't read the guidelines at all.
 
mmm4444bot said:
When I'd said "every page", I was talking about the forum pages. (I've updated that post, to clarify.)


Thank you. As I see it, the main forum issue is getting new members to post more than just an exercise statement. How can we reword the guidelines to achieve a much higher ratio of original posts that include efforts shown and/or specific questions asked?

?
Click to expand...

Can we make it easier for posters to follow the guidelines?

Let's say you ordered something at amazon.com and never got a confirmation email. After an hour on the phone a representative tells you: "Ah, Mr. Smith, you forgot to enter your zip code!" If this could happen amazon would have to triple its customer support staff. Why doesn't it happen? Easy -...
www.freemathhelp.com
 
Before new members make a post they should have to write a short sentence saying that they need to show work to receive help. I think that would help greatly as the student must read and type that they know they have to show work.
Sure some students will still show no work but at least 100% of the students would know that they have to.
 
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All I would say is that you can bring the horse to water......
 
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