ban complete solutions

pka

pka

Elite Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2005
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Thank you sincerely for finally locking the thread in the Calculus Forum started by chillintoucan28. I find it amazing that such posters are appearing on each and every such help-site that I frequent. What is giving here? Is it my generational difference? Or is it, as I suspect it is, the nature of these sites?

Look, if a person posts on enough of these sites, I can count 15 at least; there is a high probability that the person can have a complete solution supplied. We have on this site two regular users who brag about doing other people’s homework in their signatures.

I would like to see anyone who supplies a solution that is so complete that it is ready turnin-ready copy, banned.
 
Does anyone disagree with this? I think it makes sense, but at the same time I hate to ban people who are answering people's questions, even if it is posting complete solutions. Anyone else care to chime in on this?
 
pka said:
...if a person posts on enough of these sites, I can count 15 at least; there is a high probability that the person can have a complete solution supplied.
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What's really "charming" is when those "students" take what one tutor gives them on one site (say, the first step of the solution), go to the next site and post the tutor's work as their own, get the next step, go to yet-another site and post the first two tutors' work as their own, etc, etc, until they obtain the full solution. Too many "tutors" don't seem to notice that the lingo of the "student's" text is "off" (Why is this bit sensible, that bit kiddie chat-speak, this other bit nonsensical, and that other bit written in the third person?), or that the demonstrated skill-set makes no sense (How could he accomplish the difficult step 1, and yet have absolutely no idea how to do the simplistic last step, for which he claims to have enough understanding to post the instructions? And why did he forget how to spell in the middle?).

It would be nice if some of these "tutors" were more interested in providing actual help to actual students, assisting in actual learning, rather than, as it so often seems, just showing off how smart they are. It can be very frustrating to see that a teacher has taken the time and effort to post a wonderfully thoughtful and carefully-crafted pedagogical reply, only for that "teaching" answer shortly to be followed up with a "never mind that; just copy this and hand it in" post. Oh, that may not be how they present their replies, but we've seen so many times that this is exactly the effect. "Oh, golly, thanks," says the "student"; "Now that I have the complete solution for exercise 1, I totally understand it! Now here's exercise 2, which only differs in one number. And I have no idea how to do this!" How is this good for the student? I've yet to hear a good answer to that question.

Perhaps it boils down to different people having different emotional needs...?

As for the specific issue of banning people who regularly post complete worked solutions (a policy endorsed by the Mathnerds tutoring site, if I understand correctly), that would probably be something best determined by the FreeMathHelp Admin who does, after all, fund the site himself. But I would certainly second the motion.

Eliz.
 
Instead of banning the volunteer - the moderator should remove the post indicating reason.
 
I'm a little torn on the issue. I am sure there are students who would be benefitted most effectively by a complete, worked solution. Identifying who these students are is a difficult task. More difficult is eliminating the temptation for those who would NOT be best served by such a display. I am certain that it is not anywhere near appropriate judgment to assume ALL students will be MOST benefitted by complete solutions.

Isn't it why authors include a few examples in books, because some students can be benefitted by such? Isn't it why authors include dozens of unworked problems in books, because most students can be most benefitted by learning and showing independence and actual knowledge of the subject matter? Is the population of need proportional? A quick check of an algebra book or two shows 2-3 examples and 40-150 problems. A calculus book might be more like 1-3 examples and 20-60 problems.

In any case, it is not possible to control the plagiarism issue EXCEPT by deliberately failing to publish complete, worked solutions.

It certainly is possible to control the publishing of complete solutions on a given site. Banning is one way to do that. The difficulty would be two fold: 1) We WILL fail to provide maximum benefit to those who will be best helped by this method, and 2) Stoic refusal may result in a social movement away from the more confrontive methodology - However unfortunate such a movement may be. For me, an absolute ban would be a slight handicap. From time to time, I have judged students to require a complete solution. I would like the freedom to make that decision. It has occurred more than once, when presented with a large list of similar problems, that an appropriate reply seemed to be, "These are very similar. You have shown no work at all. I'll give you one for free and you can show me the rest." Of course, I cannot control the student's return.

By the way, PKA == Batten down the hatches and stay safe!
 
In most of the cases, it is relatively easy to create a similar problem - and solve it thoroughly.

Sometimes of course, that is not easy. I always tend to think that we ought to leave a little bit for student to discover in every problem - not provide "boxed" answers.
 
Hi PKA and others:

I often experience frustration and confusion when I recognize (at various help sites) certain events related to this general issue, although my frustration comes not from what I see helpers doing. I would propose some type of compromise, and I'll suggest two possibilities in several moments.

pka said:
... I find it amazing that [posters, such as those who post the same exercise at multiple sites,] are appearing on each and every such help-site that I frequent ... Is it my generational difference? Or is it, as I suspect it is, the nature of these sites? ... regular users who brag about doing other people’s homework ...
Click to expand...

"The craftiness of the cheat knows no bounds" ~ unknown.

A cheat is not always someone who breaks formal rules; individuals can cheat themselves any time with mental laziness. I find it difficult to comprehend the motivation of posters who invest so much effort seeking information; what is their mindset? I'm frustrated when I sense that they really are not very invested in the outcome.

I recently was somewhat blunt with a poster seeking help; I eventually told him that the WAY people choose to help on this board is none of his business or mine. I do not see any real evidence of bragging on this site. I also can say from experience that sometimes I learn something when concepts are reduced to a concise progression of logical steps. I like to think that many people read posts without contributing because the views are high, so, in at least one sense, there's something for everyone.

Banning individuals is at the extreme end of the board-moderation spectrum. Also, I do not believe that banning people who provide complete solutions will have much effect on the general issue at this site because this site won't be advertising the fact that it's a complete-solution free zone. These posters seeking help will just keep coming and coming.

I would not want to censore anyone seeking help, either; it is not easy to make quick judgements as to someone's true motivation. It's so hard to know on a web site exactly who and what.

Wasting time frustrates me. Posters who poorly manage their quest eventually blend information from their multiple discussions into their post at this site. Since I am not privy, I am forced to deal with piecewise information if I'm driven to help. Subsequent realization of duplication at other sites compounds my frustration, and then comes the moment where I figure out that the original poster really doesn't care.

So, perhaps my frustration is borne by some sense of what Dr. Linus Pauling coined "altruistic egotism". My entire motivation for helping is that I get something out of it. When posters waste my time, I feel frustrated.

I suggest we consider devising a system for flagging discussions so that those of us who care about the waste of time can avoid these sinkhole posts.

I suggest we consider adding another board where posters who want to help by providing answer services can do so if they wish without fear of censorship and in the absense of critisism.

Cheers,

~ Mark :)
 
Let's go with the middle ground here, at least for the time being:

1) If someone posts a complete answer, and it's their first time, I don't think anything more than a reply is necessary. Something along the lines of "we try not to post complete answers on here...". I don't want to scare off anyone genuinely trying to be helpful here.

2) If someone is posting complete answers despite warnings, and you guys think it is either detrimental to the student or your own work, then deleting the posts is acceptable. This category does not include a ban if the user also contributes useful math help as well.

3) If someone is blatantly taking advantage of these lax rules, or is widely known to post complete solutions as a way to help other students cheat, then I'm fine with a ban.

I trust your discretion in figuring out what's best. But, I don't want it to be an automatic ban just for posting a solution. There are undoubtedly cases where posting a full solution is the best way to show how something works, or maybe the tutor knows the student and understands what helps the student. If it's clear that a solution has been posted to help a student cheat, or the student has posted 1 different problem to 15 different sites, then go ahead and delete it.

I don't know if that all made sense... thanks for all your opinions as always!
 
Wow -- when I started my reply, there were no others. I did deal with a few interruptions, but time really flew I guess. :shock:

I must hurry now to read the entire thread so far to get up to speed ... !
 
Ted said:
... If someone is posting complete answers despite warnings, and you guys think it is either detrimental to the student or your own work, then deleting the posts is acceptable.
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Is this statement directed to the moderators?

I'm curious over how 'the guys' will decide the boundary that separates a particular post from being a contribution or a detriment. :?

Again, I do not see helpers who provide solutions as the magnet that draws lazy students to this site. I see the two issues as somewhat separate.

1) Some posters waste time for some helpers because they are not serious; and other helpers want to contribute to these posters' discussions, regardless

2) Some helpers choose methods that other helper's would not; we all need to co-exist because this board is a community effort

I see a need to separate/flag discussions to make it easier for each school-of-thought to focus their efforts where they want to. We need to separate/flag discussions to warn other helpers about an issue that exists in that particular discussion.

I don't know if separation if better than flogging, err, I mean flagging!

Either method can be ADVERTISED by word-of-keystrokes on the site in a way that makes it clear what's going on in an particular discussion. If a moderator were to receive information that an original poster has posted at multiple sites, then the moderator could move the entire discussion to an area where people who want to help engage in that type of process can find them -- like people who enjoy providing a concise listing of logical steps.

This would certainly make me feel better because I will be able to avoid those discussions.

If there are people who choose to help by consistently providing the solution, then they can hang out in their own area. If the rest of us who help recognize that a student just wants "the answer", then we could inform the original poster that they are in the wrong area; we can inform them that the main areas of the board are for GUIDANCE and answering SPECIFIC questions from students that DESIRE TO LEARN. I would have no problem informing either a helper or a seeker that they are in the wrong area.

This type of setup deals with the general issue on a case-by-case basis. This type of setup may actually force helpers to be more cautious about quick judgments of others' motivations because we'll need to confront the issues by explicity asking some posters about motivation (i.e., whether or not they are truly invested in learning). We can ask and serve a warning to these posters that their discussion is at threat of being moved to some "less serious" area of the boards.

I want a compromise whereby nobody is left behind. What happens if an adult student posts an exercise just to get the answer? Do we realize that we're speaking with an adult? They may have enough life experience to know exactly what they need at that moment. Their desire for just an answer may be VALID. They should have the option to receive a concise solution.

I'm losing my patience with lazy students. I want to focus on helping those who are making an attempt ... it would be nice to know WHERE the fruitful discussions are. I do not want to moderate this site. I do not want this site to formally become an answer-free zone. I would like to see a system for separating the wheat from the chaff with respect to those seeking "help" AND a system that allows skilled helpers to post complete solutions if that is how they choose to help.

~ Mark
 
That's an interesting idea. Instead of simple categories like Algebra, Geometry, and Calculus, we could break it up in a completely different manner. Math Questions, Stuck on a Problem?, I Need an Answer, Is My Answer Right? etc.

Might be confusing, though. Furthermore, if one category was for fully solved answers, I wonder if students wouldn't be inherently drawn to that forum. Even the ones who really just need a little help might just post in the answers forum, where they would be far fewer people willing to help.

Not sure what's best here. Hate to mess with things and make it worse.

edit-- Not writing in complete sentences. Apparently. Oh well. :wink:
 
My thinking may be altered because I've been enjoying my wine, and I tend to blather on, regardless ... :oops:

Yes -- I see that new areas bring up additional issues.

Do people agree with the following?

Everyone should be free to help as they see fit.

The issue of questionable motives of students can be viewed as separate from the issue of people posting complete solutions at this site.

Both of these issues can be dealt with on a post-by-post basis.

If duplicate discussions take place at this site, then it's not an issue for anybody as long as those discussions can be identified.

Anybody is free to contribute a post warning other potential helpers of a "situation" that exists within any discussion (warnings to comply with board standards).

And, related to getting along with each other ...

Regular contributors need to agree on a system to ensure that nobody is stepping on anybody else's method. In other words, can we agree to respect those methods that require original posters to respond with evidence of understanding before proceeding to post a complete solution? This "agreement" between regular contributors would need to be formal and posted as a reference for people who want to contribute.

(We have a before-you-post message at each individual board for those seeking help; maybe we need one for those who want to provide help.)

Here's another point to ponder. Perhaps those who choose to simply provide a concise solution as a response could also compromise a bit more. Maybe there could be a "standard" at this site for those who post complete answers to lean toward symbolism and/or cutting out the very basic intermediary steps. Then the concise solution steps will not totally be "camera-ready" work.

Oooh, it's a big issue overall. Can we agree on some basic principals first, and carry on this discussion from there?

If anybody thinks this site should become answer-free and only for serious students, then I would like to know. :idea:
 
Hey there, TK!

tkhunny said:
mmm4444bot said:
Everyone should be free to help as they see fit.
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Far too liberal.
Click to expand...

I respect that position.

I'm guessing that you have no hard set of rules to share on how you determine whether or not a particular method is acceptable.

I sure don't have any such set of rules, but then I'm not frustrated by seeing complete solutions on the board, either.

Hmmm, maybe I'm fighting in the wrong war. I want to advocate for a system that helps me to not waste time with nonsense. Wasting time is the frustration for me. I don't see others posting complete solutions as wasting my time.

I need to sleep on this. My altruistic egotism may not be affected by the "complete solutions" sub-issue; I may need to leave this part of the discussion to others ...
 
First, I will submit that the major contributors to this website are clearly my mathematical superiors. Additionally, these contributors have invested a lot of time and energy to making this the wonderful enterprise it has become. My hat is off to all of you. It is this spirit of generosity, of giving of oneself, that I find most admirable and most identify with. I am inspired to contribute in what little way I may. I thank Ted for this opportunity.

And so… now for some comments from the peanut gallery:

Clearly, each individual contributor has his/her own approach and theories re teaching, and likely we all vary our approach based on what we perceive of the individual student’s needs. TK voiced his varied strategy/approach thusly: “From time to time, I have judged students to require a complete solution. I would like the freedom to make that decision. It has occurred more than once, when presented with a large list of similar problems, that an appropriate reply seemed to be, ‘These are very similar. You have shown no work at all. I'll give you one for free and you can show me the rest.’ Of course, I cannot control the student's return.”

Agreed. Exactly. The students are somewhat beyond our control in the Internet environment – in the sense that we cannot “read” them as aptly as we might in a face-to-face situation. Some of the tutors here will be better at “reading” the students than others – and sometimes we’ll be right and sometimes we’ll be wrong in making those guesses. The important distinction to be recognized is that the Internet is a different environment than the classroom, and it would be a mistake not to make adjustments that reflect that difference.

I find myself in strong agreement with many points that Mark elucidated so eloquently. I have NO problem with the complete solutions being posted, even if I do not think that the particular student requesting the information will benefit best by that approach. (I could be wrong.) SOMEONE ELSE may benefit, as Mark suggested. (Me, for example. Seeing fully worked sample problems was always invaluable to me – and the more, the better! J ) If an individual student just wants to “take the money and run,” who is harmed by that? The student who refuses to learn, of course. That student will pay the price come test time.

It is understandable that contributors here will occasionally disagree with, and yes, become frustrated with other contributors’ approaches. If I am any judge of human nature, I would suspect that sometimes egos become involved and feelings get hurt. And some people get mad because they “know better” than someone else… (Far be it from me not to have strong opinions. I have lots of them, and on certain issues, I have big buttons just waiting to be pushed. J )

On behalf of those who have been “attacked” in this particular discussion, I admire their forbearance by having “bitten their tongues” thus far. I find it likely that they are both hurt and angered by this discussion. I wish to publicly offer my moral support on their behalves. I don’t believe for one second that these individuals have put in so much time, effort, and energy for the sake of “bragging” about their abilities. Personal attacks of that sort are completely out of line IMHO.

Further, of all the posts and discussions I have observed on this website over the years, I find elements of this one most disturbing. For nigh on eight years now, I have watched in horror and fury as civil and human rights have been shredded in a way I never conceived possible in the US. I consider the generosity of those who contribute on this website to be a breath of fresh air – a sign of the good in humanity. To see some of those contributors come out in support of censorship, and even the very banning of those whose methodology they disagree with, is distressing in the extreme. To those individuals I would say “Please reconsider. This is not your classroom. This is the Internet. Some greater principles are at stake here.”
 
If an individual student just wants to “take the money and run,” who is harmed by that? The student who refuses to learn, of course. That student will pay the price come test time.
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Are you serious??!!

These students - who are diligently fishing for complete solution - will pass (with let's say C) the course and claim that they have learned a subject. Isn't that the root-cause of all the problems? These people are getting out of pre-algebra - algebra - algebra II - with our active assistance. Then on a lazy summer afternoon - we will sip on our long tall iced tea - and lament the fact that our social security is not paying enough - because there are no good paying jobs here to contribute enough.

Cheating - in learning - hurts everybody. Specially when we find excuse for it.

By the way, I do agree that sometimes full solutions are necessary. In that case, I suggest, choose (make up) a similar problem and solve it completely. That way, you'll at least force the student to go through and actively change numbers and sentences around. That can induce learning. I know it takes a little more time - but I think we should do it for learning's sake - for our sake.

(Boy --- sounds like Barak Obama speech!!!)
 
Isn't that the root-cause of all the problems?
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I will not rise to the bait this time. LOL

By the way, I do agree that sometimes full solutions are necessary. In that case, I suggest, choose (make up) a similar problem and solve it completely. That way, you'll at least force the student to go through and actively change numbers and sentences around.
Click to expand...

This is a very reasonable suggestion. Thank you Mr. Khan for this positive and thoughtful input.
 
What the Hades is going on here :shock:

I agree with those that state: "in a FEW cases, giving a detailed solution is the ONLY WAY TO "TEACH".
Like, if I feel sure giving a solution means the student will "see" in full, then WHY NOT?

However, I ain't a teacher, so I'll respect everybody's opinion,
but if it ain't the same as mine, then it's wrong :lol:
 
Subhotosh Khan said:
By the way, I do agree that sometimes full solutions are necessary. In that case, I suggest, choose (make up) a similar problem and solve it completely.
Click to expand...
A good point, and an excellent suggestion! :wink:

If I may respectfully venture, here's another suggestion: When a tutor has already provided a reply containing leading "hint" and explanations and also perhaps links, set-ups, suggestions, etc, etc, would it be possible to hold off on providing the complete worked solution to the posted exercise for at least long enough for the student to have replied with at least some evidence of his own effort? That is to say, might it be acceptable to consider showing a modicum of respect to those helpers who do not always post the complete hand-in solutions, and to those students who would try to participate and learn, given the opportunity?

Eliz.
 
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