9.999... = 10, What About ε?

Captain Cranberry

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Alright, so I have a question for someone who knows more about math than I do. As far as I understand it, the statement that ten minus an infinitesimal is equal to 9 is true. That might be totally wrong, but I'm asking so that I can learn. So here's my question:

if 10 - ε = 9.999... ,

and 9.999... = 10 ,

wouldn't that suggest ε = 0? I know that isn't true, infinitesimals have value by definition, it's just too small to measure. So, what have I done wrong?

Again, I'm not trying to say that 9.999... ≠ 10, I'm totally down with that. I just want some help understanding the flaw in my logic from somebody who's well-versed in mathematics.

(I wasn't totally sure where to put this, but I'm thinking that this is a basic arithmetic question. I don't know though. Also, I'm a 4th grader who's in way over his head; so forgive me if I ask some follow-up questions. Thanks for reading my question.)



 
As far as I understand it, the statement that ten minus an infinitesimal is equal to 9 is true.
No; ten minus one is nine.

That might be totally wrong, but I'm asking so that I can learn. So here's my question:

if 10 - ε = 9.999... ,

and 9.999... = 10 ,

wouldn't that suggest ε = 0?
Yes.

I know that [ε = 0] isn't true...
Why not? If x - y = x, then what could y equal, other than zero?

...infinitesimals have value by definition, it's just too small to measure.
How are you defining "infinitesimal" (precisely and technically)?

Thank you! ;)
 
Alright, so I have a question for someone who knows more about math than I do. As far as I understand it, the statement that ten minus an infinitesimal is equal to 9 is true. That might be totally wrong, but I'm asking so that I can learn. So here's my question:

if 10 - ε = 9.999... ,

and 9.999... = 10 ,

wouldn't that suggest ε = 0? I know that isn't true, infinitesimals have value by definition, it's just too small to measure. So, what have I done wrong?

Again, I'm not trying to say that 9.999... ≠ 10, I'm totally down with that. I just want some help understanding the flaw in my logic from somebody who's well-versed in mathematics.

(I wasn't totally sure where to put this, but I'm thinking that this is a basic arithmetic question. I don't know though. Also, I'm a 4th grader who's in way over his head; so forgive me if I ask some follow-up questions. Thanks for reading my question.)



EDIT: I am sorry. I did not initially notice that you were in 4th grade. So my original answer shown below is almost certainly incomprehensible on a stand-alone basis.

The history of the idea of infinitesimals is one of tentative acceptance during the 17th and 18th centuries, rejection during the 19th and early 20th centuries, and grudging acceptance since 1962.

The idea of an infinitesimal makes some things much easier, but it is a super-slippery concept. An infinitesimal, if you accept the idea at all, is a number that is not zero but sometimes acts like zero and sometimes does not act like zero. That's weird, but the mathematics that arises from accepting that idea is called non-standard analysis. And, as I said, once you get over the initial weirdness, it makes certain branches of mathematics sort of accord with common sense.

But other mathematicians say that they do not want to deal with infinitesimals at all. That is standard analysis. So for those mathematicians, they will say your question is every bit as meaningless as whether unicorns' tails make the best dust mops. What then do those mathematicians mean when they say

\(\displaystyle 0.9999.... \text{ forever } = 1.\)

They basically mean something like this

\(\displaystyle 0.99 < 1 < 1.02 \implies 0.33 < \dfrac{1}{3} < 0.34 \text { and}\)

\(\displaystyle 0.999 < 1 < 1.002 \implies 0.333 < \dfrac{1}{3} < 0.334 \text { and}\)

so on for however long you want to continue. So a finite sequence of decimal digits can never equal one third. But the more threes we tack on, the closer it gets one third. So if we could continue forever, we would get to exactly one third. Of course, that is not practical, but we can get as close as we want. So we summarize that thought by saying

\(\displaystyle 0.333...\ = \dfrac{1}{3}.\)

We never mention the idea of infinitesimal. We just say that the more 3's we tack on to the end of the decimal, the closer we get to one third. That, in standard analysis, is what the statement above means. BUT

\(\displaystyle 0.333...\ = \dfrac{1}{3} \implies 3 \times 0.333...\ = 3 * \dfrac{1}{3} \implies 0.999...\ = 1.\)

The "logic" that I just gave is not "rigorous," but it shows how many mathematicians don't bother with infinitesimals. And if infinitesimals don't exist, your problem simply goes away.

ORIGINAL, UNEDITED ANSWER

I am not going to try to answer your fundamental question. I merely want to point out that you seem to be mixing concepts from standard analysis and non-standard analysis. The concept of infinitesimals does not exist in standard analysis, and non-standard analysis operates in a different number system from real numbers.

In standard analysis, what is being said is that

\(\displaystyle \displaystyle \left ( \lim_{n \rightarrow \infty} \sum_{j=1}^n \dfrac{9}{10^j} \right ) = 1.\)

Nothing about infinitesimals at all.

I know very little about non-standard analysis. I suspect that the answer to your question has something to do with the equality of the real part of two hyper-real numbers, but that is really not much more than a guess.
 
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Infinitecimal?

I made a mistake. When I said "
As far as I understand it, the statement that ten minus an infinitesimal is equal to 9 is true
" I meant to say
"As far as I understand it, the statement that ten minus an infinitesimal is equal to 9.999.... is true"
 
I made a mistake. When I said "
As far as I understand it, the statement that ten minus an infinitesimal is equal to 9 is true
" I meant to say
"As far as I understand it, the statement that ten minus an infinitesimal is equal to 9.999.... is true"

If you believe "...", then 9.999... = 10 -- No question. No clarification. No alteration.

If you don't like the actual meaning of "...", and have a burning desire to chop it off at some finite number of digits, then 9.999... = 10 - \(\displaystyle \epsilon\) for some \(\displaystyle \epsilon > 0\)

Fun Fact: States that are big enough to have a mile marker as large as 420 have, on occasion, replaced 420 with 419.999... to discourage stoners from stealing the sign. I've seen it in Idaho and Oregon. It could be elsewhere.
 
I truly commend tkhunny's answer. It exemplifies briefly the point that I tried to make extensively in my edit to my original response and that stapel alluded to when she asked for the definition of an infinitesimal.

Your problem exists only because you are treating an infinitesimal like an ordinary number. Some mathematicians say, in essence, that infinitesimals are not an acceptable concept. Others accept the concept of infinitesimals, but say that they do not act like ordinary numbers.
 
Additional clarification: If 9.999... is NOT 10, then tell me just how far from 10 it is. Nothing that can be said is small enough. There will always be enough 9's to make it false.
 
Additional clarification: If 9.999... is NOT 10, then tell me just how far from 10 it is. Nothing that can be said is small enough. There will always be enough 9's to make it false.
I think it is clear that the OP is not disputing that 0.999... = 10. I think he heard or dreamed up an explanation along the lines of

\(\displaystyle 9.999...\ = 10 \text { because } 9.999...\ = 10 - \epsilon \text {, where } \epsilon \text { is an infinitesimal.}\)

And he cannot grasp how the infinitesimal is not zero if the two numbers are equal. Great question sparked by an over-simplistic explanation. I wish I knew enough about non-standard analysis to see how it handles this question.
 
Alright, so I have a question for someone who knows more about math than I do. As far as I understand it, the statement that ten minus an infinitesimal is equal to 9 is true. That might be totally wrong, but I'm asking so that I can learn. So here's my question:

if 10 - ε = 9.999... ,

and 9.999... = 10 ,

wouldn't that suggest ε = 0? I know that isn't true, infinitesimals have value by definition, it's just too small to measure. So, what have I done wrong?

Again, I'm not trying to say that 9.999... ≠ 10, I'm totally down with that. I just want some help understanding the flaw in my logic from somebody who's well-versed in mathematics.

(I wasn't totally sure where to put this, but I'm thinking that this is a basic arithmetic question. I don't know though. Also, I'm a 4th grader who's in way over his head; so forgive me if I ask some follow-up questions. Thanks for reading my question.)



1st I need to applaud you for finding this website, asking your question and thinking about this problem while only in the 4th grade.
Of course, if 10-e = 9.999... and 9.9999... =10, then e=0. Good job

The idea is as e gets smaller and smaller and smaller then 9.999.... gets closer to 10. It can get as close to 10 as you want.

Here is a standard proof that a 4th grader should be able to understand. Just remember that when you multiply a number by 10 you move the decimal to the right 1 place.


If we say that the special number x = 9.999.... then 10 times x would equal 99.999..., that is 10x = 99.999.

10x = 99.999... and
x = 9.999... Subtract these
----------------- and get
9x = 90

But if 9x = 90, that is 9 times some unknown number equals 90, then the unknown number, x, must be 10. That is x=10 and also x=9.999... and so 9.999.... = 10

One last comment. I think that your teacher should have said that 10-e = 9.9999....9 (that is the number of 9's end. And then talk about what happens if e gets smaller. If e gets smaller than there are more 9's. And if e gets even smaller, then there are even more 9's. So if e=0, then there are 9's forever.
 
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(Sorry for the late response, I only just got back my computer)

Thank you everyone for your responses, I appreciate it a lot. Specifically, thanks a lot to JeffM and for putting a lot of effort and care into explaining his answer in terms I could understand (in his first response's edit) and also figuring out how I made got to the problem in the first place (in the part I quoted below) and tkhunny for explaining it even more quickly and simply. I feel like a learned a lot, thank you. Hopefully one day I'll get to the point where I can look back at JeffM's original response and understand it.

I think it is clear that the OP is not disputing that 0.999... = 10. I think he heard or dreamed up an explanation along the lines of

\(\displaystyle 9.999...\ = 10 \text { because } 9.999...\ = 10 - \epsilon \text {, where } \epsilon \text { is an infinitesimal.}\)

And he cannot grasp how the infinitesimal is not zero if the two numbers are equal. Great question sparked by an over-simplistic explanation. I wish I knew enough about non-standard analysis to see how it handles this question.
 
(I don't know if my most recent reply actually sent, so I'll delete this one if it did. Also, sorry of the late reply, I only just got my computer back.)

Thank you to everyone for your responses, I appreciate it a lot. Thanks specifically to JeffM for putting a lot of time and care into making his response easy enough for me to understand (in the edit for his first post) plus figuring out how I arrived at my problem in the first place and clarifying it for everyone else in ways that I couldn't have (in the post that I quoted below), and thank you to thunny for explaining it even more simply. I feel like I learned a lot today, so thank you very much for taking time out of your day to respond. Hopefully one day I'll get to the point where I can look back and understand JeffM's original post.

I think it is clear that the OP is not disputing that 0.999... = 10. I think he heard or dreamed up an explanation along the lines of

\(\displaystyle 9.999...\ = 10 \text { because } 9.999...\ = 10 - \epsilon \text {, where } \epsilon \text { is an infinitesimal.}\)

And he cannot grasp how the infinitesimal is not zero if the two numbers are equal. Great question sparked by an over-simplistic explanation. I wish I knew enough about non-standard analysis to see how it handles this question.
 
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